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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 24 May 2015 12:07 AM, Nick
Ashton-Hart wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
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<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Parminder, to be
honest, this
dialogue to me exemplifies the problems with the dialogue
here. </p>
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<br>
Please do clearly state what your problems are bec I do not fully
understand them, other than that you do not want a discussion of how
too much and inappropriate corporatist infusions into civil society
spaces constraint development of the needed public interest position
that is civil society's primary purpose to do and advocate... Now if
that is the crux of your problem, which the current discussion in
the BB list has been about, and which you decried, I dont see much
credibility in a senior rep of tech industry making such a
statement. it is kind of so obvious that it is meaningless.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">You've
known me for many years </p>
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<br>
That has no relevance here.... I would have been making the same
comment if my brother was involved in this business.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">and the positions
I routinely take.</p>
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<br>
That too has no relevance, although I can begin speaking about your
positions which I wont. In the same way, excuse the analogy, if a
dictator says, well, see my policies are good, why are you asking
for democracy, it would not hold ground when people are seeking a
political structural change ... The main burden of my current
interventions has been that 'content' cannot be seen in isolation of
'structure'. Your statements in fact give a very good example of
what I was trying to argue in my previous emails.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> We have had
this conversation before, I won't burden this list with a
rerun. I won't be
replying further on this subject.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I can understand that. So I take it that when you answered 'yes. I
am a civil society person' it was in fact an untrue assertion. You
are a senior rep of a business association. And you cannot be both.
We of the civil society do not accept it. <br>
<br>
And if your new organisation IDEA is proposing to be a civil society
organisation, let it disclose its primary aims, and funding, and
whether it would accept a lobbying assignment from any corporate or
industry body. The question is specific, so please try a specific
response. Transparency and accountability are essential facets of
democratic public life, even more so for civil society, which has to
be an exemplar. I as a civil society activist will only have it like
that, and push it with all the strength I have. Dont expect me to be
deterred just because an industry group or its reps want me to shut
up and let corporates lead the civil society discourse by the nose.
No, I wouldnt have it.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> Life's too short.
</p>
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</blockquote>
Not to be upfront, transparent and honest! That is what civil
society has to be about.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d8210ca40.2758.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
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<div style="color: black;">
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<p style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
23 May 2015 8:19:49 pm parminder
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0
0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left:
0.75ex;"> <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 23 May 2015 11:19
PM, Nick Ashton-Hart wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d81e52e30.27d1.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Dear
Parminder, nobody can stop you from assuming the
worst, but that doesn't make it true. Candidly, it
does increase the overall hostility on the list,
which seems to me the opposite of what this liat
needs. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">As to your
question, which has been asked and answered before
several times in different forms in this list and
the ICC list too, yes I am. Even more so given my
present professional post ends in a few days at the
end of this month. <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Dear Nick, <br>
<br>
I am asking your present affiliation, about which I am still
not clear from the above. Even President Obama can claim he
is civil society person with a right to intervene in civil
society procedural discussions but then that would be odd,
and unacceptable, isnt it.... (And think of Obama trying to
justify it by saying that he is going to lay down office
quite soon!) <br>
<br>
The website of your organisation IDEA, whose composition,
purpose and funding, I still do not yet understand,
currently lists you - apparently its only staff member - as
' Nick Ashton-Hart is the senior permanent representative of
the technology sector to the UN, its member-states, and the
international organisations in Geneva'. I am not sure if
IDEA can be considered as a civil society organisation with
its only staff being the rep of the tech industry sector....
Really more than a bit funny, I must say. <br>
<br>
Let me tell you, any worthwhile civil society group I know
would find all this as extremely odd, and unacceptable. This
strange normlessness and corporate-friendly promiscuity in
the IG civil society is exactly what my earlier email was
talking about. It is this which does not allow global IG CS
to develop the right conceptions of public interest in
global IG, much less let it fight forcefully for it. I and
groups I work with consider it an extremly important issue
in our civil society work, and would keep taking it up
forcefully.<br>
<br>
Best, parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14d81e52e30.27d1.9387b8a9f30986f905fcc4cfa238b71f@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> </p>
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<p style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On 23 May 2015
19:24:46 parminder <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid
#808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"> <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 23 May 2015
10:01 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:080EAD77-A6DB-4916-BFA3-665A2B2C6385@consensus.pro"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">+1</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not sure what you are plus-one-ing to, Nick, but if
indeed you want to make a spectacle of it, well fine
by me... I was trying a reasoned discussion on what
kind of civil society spaces we need to promote
public interest but you dont seem to be wanting any
of it. You are baying for blood, so as to say.<br>
<br>
So, let me ask you, since you are dispensing
gratuitous advice on what should be the nature of
civil society, and indeed what is an ok subject to
discuss on the bestbits list, are you a civil
society member. Just a direct question for self
identification . Last time I checked BestBits was a
civil society coalition, and while it may be so that
we may not really be too fussy about people
observing proceedings and also maybe sometimes do a
post or too, but you are actually telling how
bestbits group should conduct its business, and I
also have seem numerous comments of a similar kind
about the IGC list.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the information, and no offense
personally. Your example is quite a good and live
one for my discussion on the problematic
construction of civil society spaces in the IG area.
I would have tried to not directly talk about it,
just not to hurt anyone, but since you are pushing
the issue hard I dont think I need to have any of
such qualms. <br>
<br>
Have a good day! <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 23 May 2015, at 17:42, Claudio Ruiz <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:claudio@derechosdigitales.org"><claudio@derechosdigitales.org></a>
wrote:
With all due respect, I don’t have the time neither the energy of answering
a 1,500 words email.
Happy to engage in long discussions face to face or with a beer. Not by
email in a mailing list. That’s the whole point, at the end.
Cheers,
—Claudio Ruiz
derechosdigitales.org | @claudio
PGP fingerprint
C40E 0C6E E7B2 FA91 D8A9 1FC4 74D2 5C4D B603 D089
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 23-05-2015, at 4:32, parminder <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a>
wrote:
(…)
</pre>
</blockquote>
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