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<font face="Verdana">And of course, the main question still is: what
is your Internet-related global public policy decision making
model?</font> (Or do you have a case that Internet related global
policy making is not needed, or that it is happening quite fine?)<br>
<br>
If you are just ready to say - no, corporates do not have the same
role as governments, and cannot claim to participate as equals or on
an equal footing, in Internet-related global policy decision making
- that is enough. We can all agree, and all these ongoing
contentions be put behind us, and we can work as one. Is this that
difficult? Why do people choke on making this simple assertion,
which would clearly follow from simple democratic principles and
ideals. <br>
<br>
Is this not a simple way to remove the deep contestations that are
evident here, which so many find so unsightly?<br>
<br>
Meanwhile, if others have any simple assertion (or a set of them)
that they want to know if JNC agrees to or not, we promise to come
back immediately on that.<br>
<br>
Isnt it better to clearly bring out the actual and specific points
of differences, and see if these can be closed, rather than long
email exchanges where one can be presenting mother and apple pie
assertions, and feel quite good about it. Lets do real political
talk here, and seek closing differences, and if we cant, at least
know what the precise differences are. If we can commit ourself to
this concise methodology, we will be making progress. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 08 March 2015 03:27 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:54FC1D22.4010104@itforchange.net" type="cite">
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<font face="Verdana">I will reply to the emails of both Wolfgangs
together, and some other emails of a similar kind.<br>
<br>
We are getting circular with this discussion, so lets try to cut
the circularity with some specifics.<br>
<br>
1. You say democracy, esp in its practise, is not clear, but is
MSism (multistakeholder-ism) clearer? Should then both words no
longer be used in IG docs.<br>
<br>
2. No one asked for MS word to be removed from the doc, this is
an impotant point to remember. On the other hand people
positively insisted that democracy/ democratic not be included,
and others thought nothing of such insistence, and the
consequent non-inclusion (and continue to do so in this
discussion) - this is the problem. Do you read nothing here. I,
and JNC, reads a lot, and is positively dismayed. <br>
<br>
3. About the advice that we (JNC) should not play word games and
focus on 'concrete issues': Really! What was the Netmundial doc
about with about 40 references to the MS word and precisely one
and a half to democratic? Did it just innocently come to that,
or were some people playing intensive word games there
(Jeanette, you really were in the middle of that whole thing,
no)? Why this gratuitous advice that dont mind 'democracy' but
we will always be making sure that the MS word goes into ever
single place. Lets please be fair here. <br>
<br>
4. Finally, Can any one of you honestly say that if someone has
said at the meeting, 'MS term contains baggage', and opposed the
use of the term 'MS' as a result of which it had got removed
from the document, the whole space would not have gone hopping
mad? There would have been strong denouncements and walk outs.
This is direct question - would it not have been so? Then why
cant people think and act in a similar manner about the
'democratic' term. That is the issue here. An honest
consideration of this other hypothetical situation, and a
reponse on what would have happened if the MS word was excluded,
will make very clear what is the main issue here. Anyone?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 07 March 2015 11:07 PM,
"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A801642C03@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This discussion is bizarr.
Civil Society should concentrate on concrete issues as access, infrastructure, data protection, freedom of expression, education, capacity building, cultural diversity etc. In my eyes CS can achieve more when they communicate and collaborate with other stakeholders. Insofar a "multistakeholder approach" where CS is involved as an equal partner in its respective role, gives civil society more opportunities and options than a "one stakeholder approach" where CS is excluded from final policy and decision making and its role is reduced to implement on the "community level" what other stakeholders have decided.
Wolfgang
BTW, for people who like "wordsmithing" and "playing with paragraphs" I recommend to read para. 35 of the Tunis Agenda in the light of para. 34. Para. 34 speaks about "shared decision making procedures". Para. 35a says that states "have rights and responsibilities for international Internet-related public policy issues".
The paragraph 35a does not say that states have "exclusive rights". With other words,if you read 35 in the light of 34, states (and their governments) have to "share decision making" on "Internet related public policy issues" with other stakeholders. This is not easy to achive. But this is the challenge where we have to move forward by being creative. The NetMundial conference offered an interesting model. More forward looking Innovation is needed.
I think what you mean below is not "a consensus on the understanding and
role of democracy in the context of the internet" but rather a consensus on
how to effectively operationalize democracy in the context of the Internet
something with which I (and the JNC) completely agree and which we have been
advocating for a long time.
Further, I think that even in the absence of a fully formed consensus on the
definition of "democracy" there seems, at least based on my quotes from Mr.
Mandela and the US State Department, sufficient comfort in a working
definition of democracy that Mr. Mandela would commit his life to the
endeavour and the US-State Department would make it a fundamental pillar of
US foreign policy. Based on this, presumably "we" could have sufficient
comfort to "force" it into international documents.
The same, I should add cannot in any sense be said for multistakeholderism,
a concept which even its strongest advocates acknowledge is ill-formed,
shape shifting from context to context and lacks any consistent definition
either in theory or in practice.
M
-----Original Message-----
From: Benedek, Wolfgang (<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at">wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>)
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at">mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>]
Sent: March 7, 2015 6:02 AM
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Michael Gurstein
Subject: Re: [governance] [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of
"Connecting the Dots Conference"
First to make my position clear I'm myself an advocate of democratic
governance and a holistic approach to human rights although not as an
alternative to multistakeholderism, the potential of which in my view still
needs to be developed.
Second I have myself proposed in writing to the Secretariat to include
certain language on global citizenship education, a concept supported by the
UN Secretary General and developed very actively in the educational sector
of UNECO while only mentioned once in the UNESCO study to resolve ethical
issues in cyberspace. Finally, the concept was only mentioned without any
elaboration. And I'm aware that several other proposals made by others were
not taken up at all.
Regarding the baggage issue, I'm not an insider to these discussions, I have
no problem with appeals to democratic values, but I'm aware that the concept
of democracy has also been misused a lot in history, take the examples of
the former German Democratic Republic(GDR), the Democratic Republic of Congo
(DRC) or the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. It would be good to work
for a consensus on the understanding and role of democracy in the context of
the internet among civil society and academia first before forcing it into
international documents.
Wolfgang Benedek
Am 07.03.15 14:01 schrieb "Michael Gurstein" unter <
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><mailto:gurstein@gmail.com></a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And to be very clear, in the case of "democracy" it wasn't simply a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">matter of the concept "not making it into the final document" but
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">rather that those involved made the clear political choice to promote
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"multistakeholderism" and suppress "democracy".
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">M
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"><mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[ <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"><mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of Norbert
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Klein
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Sent: March 7, 2015 3:45 AM
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Subject: Re: [governance] [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of "Connecting the Dots Conference"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 03/07/2015 02:30 PM, Benedek, Wolfgang
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">( <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"><mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at></a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at">wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">wrote:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As a participant and speaker in the UNESCO conference Connecting the
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">dots: Options for future action in Paris I think it is important to
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">put the record straight: the main purpose of the conference was to
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">give feedback to the UNESCO draft Internet study and advise on the
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">future priorities in this field. This was done in several plenary and
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">16 breakout sessions in a MSH-approach quite successfully.
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The fact that two concepts important to some did not make it into the
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">outcome document should not be overestimated as this is all work in
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">progress. Also other concepts dear to others were not or only partly
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">included. I also do not remember that these concepts were elaborated
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">on during the sessions or panels in any significant way in order to
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">deepen their understanding.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Wolfgang Benedek
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Mr. Benedek,
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">thanks for this, for this type of, clarification - using only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">formalities like "Also other concepts dear to others were not or only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">partly included."
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I cannot easily imagine what kind of "other concept" of a similar
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">importance and weight could be lined up with "democracy." I would
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">appreciate it if you, as a participant in this UNESCO conference, could
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">share some of these "other concepts" which were also not, or only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">partially, included.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks in advance,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Norbert Klein
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Cambodia
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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