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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">a thought provoking definition of MSism
- system of, by, and for the lobbyists (and if I may add + fronts
for the lobbyists + few innocents)<br>
<pre wrap="">Guru
On Friday 06 March 2015 09:17 AM, Barry Shein wrote:
</pre>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:21753.9041.764057.805257@world.std.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Yes, yes, yes, for all the talk I tend to agree with Michael
Gurstein's summary below, msism appears to be a bit of a "pig in a
poke" as the expression goes (an offer to buy something in a bag which
you can't look into, only guess that something [good] is in there.)
Further, from some of my observation it seems disturbing even on the
surface. For one thing there's no indication of how a conflict of
interest is handled. Worse, a conflict of interest seems to become a
legitimate interest and enfranchised equal.
Fully admitting my understanding may be imperfect even if just because
understanding may be impossible when a concept is ill-defined the more
I hear the more I can't help but think that this is an attempt to
codify a system we have developed without really any rules or
regulation in the United States Congress.
We call it a system of, by, and for the lobbyists.
Anyone may lobby the US Congress of course, it is one of the most open
processes in the world. It does tend to favor oil lobbyists and auto
lobbyists and drug manufacturer lobbyists etc but nonetheless if you
wish you may compete for attention as a homeless lobbyist or single
mother lobbyist (e.g.) and good luck to you! But nothing prevents such
participation and indeed many try. It is democracy red in tooth and
claw!
There is one critical difference, however. Lobbyists must indirect
through congressional representatives who are actually elected by
their constituents, one person one vote.
This system seems to eliminate that annoying middleman (middleperson?)
and just lets the lobbyists introduce and vote on legislation directly
as interest, i.e., stakeholder, groups.
I am skeptical of everything I wrote above because surely this can't
be the case -- everyone here is far too intelligent to want to
reinvent the notoriously interested US lobby system as an actual
governing structure -- so please disabuse me of these silly notions!
From: "Michael Gurstein" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><gurstein@gmail.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Those are very good questions Shawna and let me try to answer in discursive=
rather than declarative mode...
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Shawna Finnegan [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:shawna@apc.org">mailto:shawna@apc.org</a>]=20
Sent: March 5, 2015 2:22 PM
To: Michael Gurstein
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
Subject: Re: [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting t=
he Dots Conference"
=20
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
=20
Michael,
=20
Could you please describe the precise fears that you have of a global gover=
nance paradigm based on multi-stakeholder processes?
=20
[MG] That is a difficult question since honestly I am quite unclear as to w=
hich of the variety of stakeholder models is being proposed at any particul=
ar time or in any particular context, which of course is one of the major s=
ources of hesitation that I have with these kinds of proposals. Before ent=
ering into a decision making process and particularly one that will have re=
al and potentially very significant consequences I want to know what the ru=
les of the game are. Who is involved, where they came, who are they account=
able to and how, what overall structures of accountability will be in place=
, what decision making rules/procedures will be followed, and so on and so =
on. Unfortunately with the way in MSism is conventionally presented it is=
rather buying a "pig in a poke"... one is expected to buy into the meme an=
d then take one's chances with whatever turns up re: what will actually occ=
ur in a specific decision making context. My own experiences in attempting=
to participate in MS processes as evidenced in my blog give some indicatio=
n at a micro-level of what is involved.
=20
Further before entering into these kinds of "games" I want to know how they=
will work under conditions of conflict and stress and not just in conditio=
ns of presumed harmony and good will. My observation is that MS processes =
do not work very well at all when there is conflict which is a major proble=
m given that the basis of the approach is one where participants are involv=
ed specifically because they come from different contexts with presumably d=
ifferent interests which will inevitably result in conflicts of various kin=
ds. My observation is that when a MS process is subject to conflict or str=
ess it immediately reverts to a defensive and control mode where privileged=
insiders close ranks, extrude the conflict (and its individual sources) an=
d proceed as though nothing had occurred =E2=80=93 in this way they are ach=
ieving consensus (which is of course the goal) but a consensus which reflec=
ts nothing more than the capacity of insiders to find a way of reconciling =
(and satisfying) insider's interests and eliminating the need to respond to=
divergent positions and interests.
=20
Finally, I see no evident mechanisms to prevent elite capture--capture by e=
lites within individual stakeholder groups since these groups have in most =
cases no obvious internal structures for ensuring appropriate levels of eff=
ective accountability/representivity, and capture by social/economic elites=
since these have the resources to participate and "manage" these processes=
in a way which no non-economic elite will be able to do in the absence of =
some form of external (state based) structures of enforcing accountability,=
transparency etc. In the sphere of Internet Governance we are talking abo=
ut decisions which ultimately will impact billions and even trillions of do=
llars of value. Do you really think that an under or non-resourced civil s=
ociety (or government such as those found in many LDC=E2=80=99s for that ma=
tter) will be able to resist the kind of resources which can and will be de=
ployed to game those decision making processes in favour of elite and domin=
ant interests.
=20
=20
I think you may have too high expectations for democracy. The US government=
(along with Canada, the UK, and many other colonizing global powers) has b=
een violating human rights and destroying societies long before 'multi-stak=
eholder' started to look like a paradigm.
=20
[MG] Yes, no question but that suggests to me the need to redouble efforts =
to make democratic governance more effective and responsive rather than tos=
sing it out on the faint hope that something (anything) might be better=E2=
=80=A6=20
=20
=20
Multi-stakeholder governance is, in my opinion, an extension of democratic =
pluralism.=20
=20
[MG] A form of pluralism perhaps, but I fail to see where the =E2=80=9Cdemo=
cratic=E2=80=9D comes in=E2=80=A6 perhaps you could explain.
=20
=20
Powerful interests capture multi-stakeholder processes in much the same way=
as democratic processes.
=20
[MG] Yes, very likely but with democratic processes there is at least the p=
ossibility of rectification. With legitimized control by powerful (corpora=
te) interests there is no possibility that I can see at rectification. Tho=
se interests are in fact legally obliged (under current law) to maximize th=
eir individual interests whatever the collective good. I can lobby my gover=
nment, organize protests and voter campaigns to (possibly) achieve desired =
ends =E2=80=93 how exactly do I influence Google or Disney or=E2=80=A6 for =
Google I can=E2=80=99t even find a phone number let alone how I might possi=
bly impact on a decision that they have made or are making. But I agree tha=
t we need new and more effective means for achieving democratic accountabil=
ity and better and more inclusive and responsive structures of democratic d=
ecision making=E2=80=94but tossing out hard won rights and gains that have =
been achieved over a thousand years and much much blood and struggle for an=
undefined =E2=80=9Cpig in a poke=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t seem to me to be=
a very good social trade off to be making.
=20
Going back to a previous comment you made in this thread, I am surprised to=
read that you would advocate for any conventional civil society grouping t=
o shun an organization that did not actively endorse democracy as a fundame=
ntal principle. Justice is a fundamental principle. Democracy is a system o=
f government. In practice, that system has been used as a tool to placate u=
s and legitimize powerful interests.
=20
[MG] See above but also it is necessary to separate the mechanics and struc=
tures of democratic governance from the norms and principles of democracy. =
Individual instances of supposed democratic governance may have failed or b=
een misused or misdirected but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean that the aspiratio=
n of the people towards self-governance, empowerment, and social justice is=
not an appropriate aspiration which is to be lightly and cavalierly reject=
ed in favour of governance by self-selected (and ultimately self-serving) e=
lites.
=20
I very much agree that decisions made by civil society organizations now, e=
ven if through non-action, will have significant consequences long-term. An=
d I agree that sometimes civil society need to walk out of negotiations. Pe=
rhaps we should have red lines. That is an important discussion to have.
=20
[MG] yes..
=20
BTW, I am hearing you arguing in favour of Multistakeholder governance as a=
n appropriate mode for Internet (and presumably) other areas of governance.=
Is this the official position of APC?
=20
M
=20
Shawna
=20
On 15-03-05 01:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks Shawna/Anriette, and welcome to this discussion...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Just a couple of things...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">An individual or organization with convictions is judged by its=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">willingness to say "no", to walk away when those convictions have been=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">trampled upon... In this case the rejection of "democracy" as a=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">qualifier for Internet Governance is I think a clear challenge, to=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">one's convictions concerning the significance of democracy in the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">context of Internet Governance. APC could (and in my opinion
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">should) walk away from situations where there is a clear denial of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">democracy as a fundamental governance principle.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Similarly, the acceptance or rejection of choices is a clear=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">indication of preferences... In this case the acceptance of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"multistakeholderism" where "democracy" had been rejected is a clear=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">indication of what appear to be the preferences of those who signed on=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to, or otherwise accepted the Outcome Statement. Thus where there is a=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">clear choice, MSism is evidently the preferred option for those who=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">signed on to this agreement.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And please be aware that this is not trivial...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The USG has made it quite clear in a variety of contexts that they see=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">MSism as their preferred paradigm for global governance in the wide=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">variety of areas going forward (notably of course not in=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">security/surveillance). Thus accepting the elimination of "democracy"=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">as a necessary element of Internet Governance is a pre-figuration of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">what we can expect in the range of other areas requiring global=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">decision making in the future. Is this APC's preferred position?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The manner in which MSism operates in practice is a form of governance=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">by elites. A prioritization of MSism by APC and others means that the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">necessary explorations of how democratic governance can most=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">effectively operate in the Internet age is deferred if not completely=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ignored, of course further empowering the elites and the 1%. Again is=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this APC's preferred position?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So decisions made by APC now, even if they are done through non-action=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">rather than action will contribute to very significant consequences in=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the longer term and again I repeat my question -- "has APC (and others=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">who are so blithely jumping on the MS
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">bandwagon) debated and then agreed to favour notions of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">multistakeholderism over a commitment to democracy as part of their=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">own normative structures...?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Best,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">M
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">-----Original Message----- From: Shawna Finnegan=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[ <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:shawna@apc.org"><mailto:shawna@apc.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:shawna@apc.org">mailto:shawna@apc.org</a>] Sent: March 5, 2015 11:2=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">3 AM To: Michael=20
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Gurstein Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbit=">bestbits@lists.bestbit=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">s.net;=20
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> Sub=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">ject: Re: [bestbits] Remarks at=20
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting the Dots Conference"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Michael,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">While I am not active in these lists, I do try to follow the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discussion, and would like to take the opportunity to respond to your=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">question about whether APC has debated and agreed to favour notions of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">'multistakeholderism' over a commitment to democracy.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">In the 3+ years that I have worked with APC, my experience has been=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">that we debate the strengths and weaknesses of various=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">multi-stakeholder spaces on an ongoing basis, and discuss whether it=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">is strategic to engage in those spaces. At the same time, we support=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">our members to advocate for changes in laws and policies, and actively=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">engage in intergovernmental bodies, such as the UN Human Rights=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Council.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Moreover, when there is opportunity to contribute to ongoing=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discussion about multistakeholder processes and 'enhanced=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">cooperation', APC has emphasized that multi-stakeholder participation=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">is a means to achieve inclusive democratic internet
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">governance:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"Multi-stakeholder participation is not an end in itself, it is a=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">means to achieve the end of inclusive democratic internet governance=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">that enables the internet to be a force, to quote from the Geneva=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Declaration, for =E2=80=9Cthe attainment of a more peaceful, just and=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">prosperous world.=E2=80=9D
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">(from our submission:=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.apc.org/en/system/files/APC_response_CSTD_WGEC_10092013.pdf"><http://www.apc.org/en/system/files/APC_response_CSTD_WGEC_10092013.pdf></a>=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.apc.org/en/system/files/APC_response_CSTD_WGEC_10092013.pdf">http://www.apc.org/en/system/files/APC_response_CSTD_WGEC_10092013.pdf</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> There is no agreement to favour notions of 'multistakeholderism'
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">over a commitment to democracy because the dilemma is false. APC=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">engages where we see the opportunity to positively affect change.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Shawna
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 15-03-05 08:04 AM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Pardon my "tone" Anriette, but I find a UN document signed off on by=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">significant elements of Civil Society which excludes reference to=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"democracy" in favour of the vague and non-defined terminology of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"multistakeholderism=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://gurstein.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/the-multistakeholder-model-=">https://gurstein.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/the-multistakeholder-model-=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">neo-liberalism-and-global-internet-governance/> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://gurstein.wordpress.=">https://gurstein.wordpress.=</a>
com/2014/03/26/the-multistakeholder-model-neo-liberalism-and-global-interne=
t-governance/>"
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">and which equally excludes references in any way supportive of social
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">justice along with a rationalization of this because of "lack of=20=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">space" and presumptions of "conceptual baggage", as quite "demeaning"=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of all those who were in any way a party to this travesty.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This combined with the non-transparency of the selection of the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">responsible parties and of their deliberative activities and equally=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of the provenance of the funding support provided for the Civil=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Society component who were able to attend this event and thus provide=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the overall framework of legitimacy for this output document should I=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">think raise alarm bells among any with a degree of independent=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">concern for how normative structures are evolving (or "being=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">evolved") in this sphere.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">BTW, has APC debated and then agreed to favour notions of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">multistakeholderism over a commitment to democracy as part of its own=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">normative structures as I queried in my previous email?
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">M
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">-----Original Message----- From:=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bes=">bestbits-request@lists.bes=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">tbits.net
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[ <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bestbits-request@l=">mailto:bestbits-request@l=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">ists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of Anriette=20
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Esterhuysen Sent: March 5, 2015 2:36 AM To:
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> Cc=
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Subject: [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the Dots Conference"
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear all
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Just an explanation and some context.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I was on the 'coordinating committee' of the event. Our role was to=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">review comments on the draft statement and support the chair and=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">secretariat in compiling drafts.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The final UNESCO outcome document did include the vast majority of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">text/proposals submitted by civil society beforehand and onsite.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This includes text submitted by Richard Hill on behalf of JNC=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">(Richard made several editorial suggestions which improved the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">text) and text from Anita Gurumurthy from IT for Change (which=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">greatly improved weakened language on gender in the pre-final draft).
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The text on 'social and economic rights' were not excluded for any=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">reason other than it came during the final session and the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Secretariat were trying to keep the document short and linked=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">directly to the Study.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">It was decided to elaborate on the links to broader rights, and to=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">UNESCO needing to work with other rights bodies, in the final study=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">report rather than in the outcome statement.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Again, not ideal from my perspective, but that was the outcome of the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discussion.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">It is a pity that 'democratic' was not added, but it was never really=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">an option. I personally, and APC, support linking democratic to=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">multistakeholder and we were happy that this happened in the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">NETmundial statement. And reading Norbert's text below (thanks for=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">that Norbert) I would like to find a way to make sure that the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">meaning of democratic However, in the UN IG context there is a very=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">particular angle to why "democratic multistakeholder" is so=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">contentious. In the Tunis Agenda the word "democratic" is directly=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">linked with the word "multilateral" - every time it occurs. This=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">means that people/governments who feel that 'multilateral' can be=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">used to diminish the recognition given to the importance of=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">multistakeholder participation, and take the debate back=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">intergovernmental oversight of IG, will not agree to having=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">'democratic'
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">in front of multistakeholder.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">In the context of these UN type negotiations it will be code for=20=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">reinserting multilateral (in the meaning of 'among governments') into=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the text.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">At the NETmundial we had to fight for 'democratic multistakeholder',=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">but because it is a 'new' text we succeeded.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The thing with documents that come out of the UN system is that they=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">are full of invisible 'hyperlinks' to previous documents and=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">political struggles that play themselves out in multiple spaces.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I actually looked for a quote from the Tunis Agenda that we could=20=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">insert (at Richard's suggestion) to see if I could find a reference=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to democratic that is not linked to 'multilateral' but I could not=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">find this quote, and I showed this to Richard and warned him that=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">unfortunately 'democratic' will most likely not be included.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I can confirm that the editing group did consider this seriously, but=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">that the number of objections to this text were far greater than the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">number of requests for putting it in.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This is simply in the nature of consensus texts that are negotiated=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">in this way.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">There was also much stronger text on anonymity and encryption as=20=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">fundamental enablers of online privacy and freedom of expression in=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the early draft. But it had to be toned down on the insistence of the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">government of Brazil as the Brazilian constitution states that=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">anonymity is illegitimate.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Civil society never succeeds in getting everything it wants in=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">documents we negotiate with governments. We have to evaluate the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">gains vs. the losses.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">In my view the gains in this document outweighs the losses.=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Supporting it means that we have UN agency who has a presence in the=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">global south who will put issues that are important to us on its=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">agenda, which will, I hope, create the opportunity for more people=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">from civil society, particularly from developing countries, to learn,=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">participate and influence internet-related debates with=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">policy-makers.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Michael, as for your tone, and your allegations. I don't really know=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">what to say about them. They are false, they are destructive and they=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">demean not only the work of the civil society organisations or=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">individuals you name, but also the work - and what I believe to be=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the values - of the Just Net Coalition.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Anriette
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 05/03/2015 11:46, Norbert Bollow wrote:
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<pre wrap="">On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 02:27:14 +0100
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<pre wrap="">Jeremy Malcolm < <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org%20%3cmailto:jmalcolm@eff.org"><mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org%20%3cmailto:jmalcolm@eff.org></a>=
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<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org">jmalcolm@eff.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org"><mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org></a>>
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<pre wrap="">wrote:
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<pre wrap="">On Mar 4, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Michael Gurstein <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>
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<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><mailto:gurstein@gmail.com></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">mailto:gurstein@gmail.com</a>>>
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<pre wrap="">wrote:
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<pre wrap="">Perhaps we could have an explanation from Jeremy and others on the
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<pre wrap="">drafting committee as to when and how "democracy" and "social and
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<pre wrap="">economic rights' became unacceptable terms in a document meant to
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">have global significance?
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">With pleasure. This is why:
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<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/unesco-resists-jncs-attempt-to"><http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/unesco-resists-jncs-attempt-to></a>=
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<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/unesco-resists-jncs-attempt-to">http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/unesco-resists-jncs-attempt-to</a>
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<pre wrap="">-
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">t
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">urn-democracy-against-ordinary-internet-users
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">I would like to hereby state clearly that what Jeremy claims is=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">JNC's
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">view of "democratic multi-stakeholderism" is not an actual position=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">of
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">JNC.
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">For JNC, "democratic" simply means: democratic.
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">We insist that just like governance at national levels must be
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">democratic (which has been internationally accepted as a human=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">right,
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">even if there are countries where this is not currently implemented
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">satisfactorily), any and all global governance must also be=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">democratic.
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">JNC's foundational document, the Delhi Declaration, states this as
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">follows:
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">Globally, there is a severe democratic deficit with regard to
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">Internet governance. It is urgently required to establish
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">appropriate platforms and mechanisms for global governance of the
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Internet that are democratic and participative.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">We are opposed to any kind of system in which multistakeholderism is
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">implemented in a way that is not democratic.
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">We are *not* opposed to participative mechanisms for global=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">governance
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of the Internet. In fact we explicitly demand, in our foundational
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">document, mechanisms for global governance of the Internet which are
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">democratic *and* participative.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This demand has nothing whatsoever to do with what Jeremy claims is
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">our goal, which he describes as =E2=80=9Climited type of government-led
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">rulemaking=E2=80=9D. That would clearly *not* be participative.
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">We insist that Internet governance must be democratic *and*
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">participative.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Is that so hard to understand???
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<pre wrap="">=20
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The above-mentioned post of Jeremy also links, twice, to an earlier
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">blog post of his, and he claims that he has there "revealed ... the
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">agenda of the Just Net Coalition". That post happens to be quite=20
</pre>
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</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">full
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of factually false assertions. I have now published my response=20=20
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">(which
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">had previously been communicated in a non-public manner) at
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=20
</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://justnetcoalition.org/reply-jeremy-malcolm"><http://justnetcoalition.org/reply-jeremy-malcolm></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://justnetcoali=">http://justnetcoali=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">tion.org/reply-jeremy-malcolm
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">Greetings,
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<pre wrap="">Norbert
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<pre wrap="">co-convenor, Just Net Coalition
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<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://JustNetCoalition.org"><http://JustNetCoalition.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://JustNetCoalition.org">http://JustNetCoalition.org</a>
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<pre wrap="">____________________________________________________________
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