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    <font size="+1">Dear all<br>
      <br>
      I have been fairly silent on this issue and APC is consulting our
      members about it at present. We have been really busy in APC with
      project meetings, evaluations, planning, and also the African
      School on IG, so apologies for not participating.<br>
      <br>
      Anja, thanks for asking for the view of Brazilian colleagues. I
      have also asked people off list and thus far I get the sense that
      while there are concerns, there is also a sense that it is worth
      giving the process a try.<br>
      <br>
      I felt that the the letter that Ian and the CSCG wrote was
      excellent, and I feel that having them in place has put us in a
      stronger position.  I also feel that JNC's decision to not be part
      of the process is legitimate and clear.<br>
      <br>
      I do see the pros and cons of participation a bit differently from
      how Ian had put them in an earlier message...perhaps not quite as
      'black and white'.<br>
      <br>
      My feeling at this point is that some of the strong concerns we
      expressed at the time of the NETmundial Initiative Launch in late
      August have actually been addressed.<br>
      <br>
      I don't particularly like the process... I would have liked more
      transparency and consultation around the redesign of the process
      and its mechanisms.<br>
      <br>
      But I really do care about the NETmundial outcomes, and I believe
      we should do our best to take it forward, to intergovernmental
      spaces, at national level, and through the IGF.  This might sound
      pretty naive to many but I still believe that the only sustainable
      path to inclusive  democratic multistakeholder internet policy and
      regulation is through closer connections between multistakeholder
      and intergovernmental processes and mechanisms.<br>
      <br>
      I am at the airport and about to board.. so should be fast.<br>
      <br>
      My view would be that civil society participates in the NMI with
      the following:<br>
      <br>
      - a set of indicators and criteriat that are important to us<br>
      - a limited timeframe <br>
      - agreed milestones including for a point at which we assess
      whether we continue or not<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      My proposal would be try and make the process work, and to link it
      closely to the IGF and for civil society e.g. at Best Bits meeting
      to get together prior to the 2015 IGF and then to assess whether
      our particpation has had impact, whether we have been able to
      influence the process and whether it meets the criteria important
      to us.<br>
      <br>
      This is a risk of course. And we could legitimise a process that
      turns out not to be worthy of it.  But I think it is a risk worth
      taking, and we can always withdraw.<br>
      <br>
      Not trying is a greater risk as it could result in the most
      progressive, to date, agreement on principles that respect human
      rights inclusive processes in internet governance simply fizzling
      out.  I think that backtracking in that way on what we all
      achieved through the NETmundial would be a huge loss to changing
      how we think about, and implement, internet governance.<br>
      <br>
      Anriette<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/11/2014 21:59, Anja Kovacs wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJqNAHC5ngUU9pgZevBHn3C92LhOU8kBbCcs7yTvE=g7iWJaFg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Dear all,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>A question. If any of the Brazilians on these lists could
          perhaps shed some light on why their government has decided to
          support this initiative, and how they see it, that could
          possibly be very helpful? I have had great respect for Brazil
          and its work in the past, and can't help but wonder whether
          I'm missing something here.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>For the moment, however, knowing what I know, I am still
          not in favour of civil society networks giving this their
          stamp of approval (though as earlier, I also don't have an
          issue with individual organisations who want to participate to
          continue doing so and report back to the wider community). A
          WEF-ICANN alliance, even if backed by the Brazilian
          government, is just not the place I want to see emerge as a
          new power centre in Internet governance - even less so as they
          have already given themselves some fixed seats.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I've in particular been wondering what this selection and
          committee means seeing that some of the initiatives the NMI
          would "foster" clearly are already on the way. For example, I
          (and I know many others on this list too) have already been
          contacted by the Governance Lab at NYU to give feedback on a
          proposed NETmundial Solutions map that would be developed
          under the flag of the NMI. It's difficult not to feel like the
          only thing we and others would be doing is simply to
          rubberstamp things that would happen anyway - but because we
          okay them, somehow the structure and the initiatives it gives
          birth to gain a legitimacy that they would not have had
          without. An unwise use of our power, I would say (that they
          would go ahead without us anyway is something that a
          representative from the WEF made clear enough to me in an
          informal conversation in October. Some of the individual
          initiative, such as that map, might have value, but about the
          structure as a whole, I am not so certain) </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I would feel far more comfortable if we would instead start
          exploring the constructive ways of going ahead with our own
          work suggested by Amelia and others. I would love to hear more
          about what they're thinking, and how we could operationalize
          this ourselves and take it forward.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thanks and best,</div>
        <div>Anja</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On 19 November 2014 01:12, Nnenna
          Nwakanma <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>Dear Governance and Best Bits listers, and
                      especially African Civil Society members here.<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    My opinion is that Civil Society should participate.
                    It is okay to table our "fears" and let NMI know
                    that our participation may be withdrawn if XYZ is
                    not met.<br>
                    <br>
                    I think it is fine for certain networks to say "No",
                    but in Africa, I dont think we should miss out.<br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                  NMI may also just make a public call for CS who wants
                  to participate.  From the launch, I already saw that
                  some CS persons were already very interested in the
                  NMI.<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                I see it is okay if one network or list  or platform 
                decides NOT to participate but we cannot ask others not
                to.<br>
                <br>
                Me, I am in favour of Governance and BB lists nominating
                people. And at the same time, saying that it is
                important for African S to participate.<br>
                <br>
              </div>
              All for now<span class="HOEnZb"><br>
                <br>
                Nnenna<br>
              </span></div>
            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 6:06 PM,
                    Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal <span
                      dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net"
                        target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote">
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">
                      <div>
                        <div><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span>Jeremy,<br>
                                                          </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
                                  </span>
                                </span></span></span></span></div>
                        <div>Thanks for your email.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Looking after pathologies is certainly a
                          noble cause, but as we both do not belong to
                          the medical corpus, maybe it would simply be
                          wise to terminate this, and cool down a bit.
                          Even though we are in real politics.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Go after the arguments put on the table is
                          probably of better effect and impact. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>What I wanted to say using quotes from an
                          array of observers or participants is that the
                          initiative has more than a troubling set of
                          definitions, expectations and leading to an
                          overall confusion. It looks more or less like
                          "un chèque en blanc" to illegitimate grouping
                          of a wealthy elite (the three players of NMI
                          have deep pockets, and friends with deeper
                          pockets). I am not even trying to clarify the
                          obvious tactics behind all their gesture. I
                          had an intermezzo as a consultant for 10 years
                          in my life, and can more than easily read the
                          partition behind all of that smoking screen.
                          In the army, you always call some troopers
                          from the "génie" when you need a screen of
                          smoke to cross a street, a bridge or a simple
                          line. No, let's stay on what is at stake such
                          as</div>
                        <div>- why part of civil society in Busan
                          accepted the fact that the US refused to
                          discuss mass surveillance?</div>
                        <div>- why is the IGF not the best bet for civil
                          society to keep maturing and growing?</div>
                        <div>- why is encryption, I know EFF is working
                          hard on this topic,  insufficiently at the
                          center of the IG debate? Isn't encryption part
                          of the mass surveillance issue? So then why to
                          please the US, in Sao Paulo, then in Busan by
                          refusing to really go after it? Mass
                          surveillance has nothing to do with IG they
                          told us.</div>
                        <div>- why civil society not more vocal on the
                          Google Tour against the EU decision to protect
                          personal data, considering rightly in my view,
                          that search engines are touching at personal
                          data, beyond the simple links they assembled
                          in their result pages? This is a real good
                          debate for CS.</div>
                        <div>- why not to discuss the IETF and its roles
                          in the IG? More important than IANA for
                          example? </div>
                        <div>- why CS seems deprived of imagination and
                          innovative ideas when it comes to create a new
                          coordinating body/system, as the ICANN is
                          saying the political aspects of IG is beyond
                          its mandate? How can we help ourselves to have
                          these ideas popping out of CS minds? Looking
                          at all the NGOs we are currently ranking, I am
                          positively impressed with their innovative
                          abilities, much more powerful than classical
                          corps. They also create more "values".</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>I am not naive, and have probably a few
                          answers in mind. Nevertheless, CS should
                          really act differently. The NMI story is
                          relevant of the weakness that anyone can
                          perceive among CS, and this is not to blame
                          JNC or anyone else. A leadership crisis wrote
                          someone today.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Remember the preparation of Net Mundial?
                          Did the ICANN handle CS in a satisfactory
                          fashion? Haven't we seen the trailer? We had
                          to twist their arm every minute to get info,
                          to get principles, to simply get it not that
                          bad. Why is it so difficult for the 'nice
                          guys" not to go directly after the right
                          ideas, proposals and suggestions when
                          launching an open, honest, transparent debate?
                          Instead they keep creating distrust with their
                          committees, high level panel, advisory
                          boards... Trust is critical. "Please energize
                          me! should we all cry. We are all losing.
                          Terrifying, I would say.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>So why don't you and other leaders of CS
                          decide to meet, have a debate and launch a
                          true CS initiative, calling governments,
                          citizens and corporations to join in a effort
                          to rebalance the growing asymmetry we live in
                          since the mid-nineties? In the face of
                          History, and our fellow citizens, we are
                          failing, because CS is not united. To do that
                          you do not need any WEF. You only need to
                          trust, share, and confront the realities that
                          are taking away our rights. This is what
                          should be done, now, instead of wasting our
                          time and little money to debate about the
                          comfortable sofas of the WEF.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Somehow BB is a failure, as it has not
                          delivered to its own mandate. JNC is not
                          getting more isolated, it is growing and
                          reaching more and more people. We should not
                          care about that. We should care about having a
                          collective action that would oblige
                          governments, corps and the current mandarins
                          to take more progressive steps.
                          Multistakeholderism when it comes to convene
                          and consult many participants is certainly
                          nice. This has often been done, long before we
                          began to put in our mouth the MS narrative.
                          When it comes to make decisions at least on
                          the public policy level, MS simply doesn't
                          work. If the coders had to go through MS to
                          make decision, they would have simply gone
                          nowhere. Only a few guys fixing better than
                          other few guys technical issues doesn't equate
                          a political model. It could work, but then it
                          would lead to some social disaster, a
                          disruption that would unleash violence.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>JNC has no monopole of ethics, but because
                          we are poor enough, our bias is somehow
                          limited. We are paid by no government, no
                          corporation, no barons. We are simple
                          citizens, with a profound democratic concern
                          (to avoid another asymmetric wars), and we are
                          ready to go into rationales as long as we are
                          not characterized as psychotics or lunatics.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>There is no way that we can really have a
                          strong impact as civil society participants if
                          we do not go after unity. And we all agree
                          that we should pay more respect to each
                          others, as long as we do not have hidden
                          agenda, and gentle philanthropes putting their
                          money in the debate. That would be fair.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>JC</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div> </div>
                        <br>
                        <div>
                          <div>Le 18 nov. 2014 à 17:55, Jeremy Malcolm a
                            écrit :</div>
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div>On Nov 18, 2014, at 1:49 AM,
                                  Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global
                                  Journal <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <div>
                                    <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div><span>I leave to Norbert
                                              co-convenor at JNC to
                                              answer your first email.
                                              On a personal note, I
                                              would appreciate you to
                                              elaborate about the
                                              "dumping on civil society
                                              colleagues" you are
                                              referring to,</span></div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Within the next few days I’m
                                      going to write a separate blog
                                      post about this at <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://igfwatch.org/"
                                        target="_blank">igfwatch.org</a>,
                                      because JNC’s pathologies are
                                      off-topic for this list.</div>
                                    <br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>The WEF/ICANN/CGIbr
                                            project is not in lack of
                                            clarity. If I do listen to
                                            non JNC members:</span></div>
                                        <div><span>- Wall Street Journal
                                            reporter: "The NetMundial
                                            wants to spread Internet
                                            Governance more evenly
                                            across the developing
                                            world". (Ask Drew Fitzgerald
                                            about the source for that
                                            understanding of what is the
                                            WIB Initiative)</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Which is roughly opposite to
                                      what JNC is saying.</div>
                                    <br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>- McCarthy at The
                                            Register: "ISOC has blasted
                                            efforts from some quarters
                                            to create a "UN Security
                                            Council</span><span>”</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>A fatuous analogy, do you take
                                      it at face value?</div>
                                    <br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>- Eileen Donahoe, ...</span><span> Virgilio
                                            Almeida, ...</span><span> Richard
                                            Samans, ...</span><span> Fadi
                                            Chehadé: ...</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>None of these statements
                                        support the characterisation of
                                        the Initiative as in your letter
                                        as “being ’the’ mechanism for
                                        global [Internet] governance”.</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>Based on these
                                            official and public
                                            statement, I can only read
                                            JNC statement as an
                                            interesting analysis and
                                            agree with JNC reluctance to
                                            participate or endorse such
                                            following-up (hijacking
                                            might be to blunt) of the
                                            NetMundial meeting. </span><span>Nor
                                            the WEF, ICANN, or CGIbr are
                                            owners of what was stated
                                            ultimately in Sao Paulo,
                                            with all due reserves by
                                            different participants.</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I’ve also said, and maintain,
                                      that I regard the NETmundial
                                      Initiative (particularly the
                                      naming thereof) to be a hijacking
                                      of the NETmundial meeting. On this
                                      much we agree.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>So instead of trying
                                            to grab a comfortable seat </span><span>in
                                            that convoy </span><span>...
                                            should for once, Civil
                                            Society ... acknowledges the
                                            serious concerns seen in the
                                            making of, and in the
                                            diverse objectives presented
                                            by the WEF, ICANN and CGIbr.</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Ian has taking a more neutral
                                      position, but for my part
                                      personally I certainly have (<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/netmundial-initiative-takes-a-top-down-approach-to-implementing-the-netmundial-principles"
                                        target="_blank">http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/netmundial-initiative-takes-a-top-down-approach-to-implementing-the-netmundial-principles</a>). 
                                      What prompted my last email was
                                      not that JNC opposes the
                                      NETmundial Initiative, but that it
                                      has to do this by impugning the
                                      motives of other civil society
                                      groups and falsely attributing
                                      them with their endorsement of the
                                      Initiative.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Also for the avoidance of
                                      doubt, nobody else endorsed my
                                      rant which was sent in a personal
                                      capacity (though I have
                                      subsequently received, off list,
                                      two emails in support, as well as
                                      one against).</div>
                                    <br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div>
                                        <div><span>By the way, could you
                                            explain us (subscribers of
                                            the BestBits list):</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I do not have time to respond
                                      to the rest of your mail right now
                                      because I am speaking at a
                                      conference today and will be
                                      boarding a flight a few hours
                                      later.  But I write this brief
                                      response just because you
                                      suggested in most recent mail that
                                      I was ignoring you - I’m not. 
                                      Anyway, others can respond to the
                                      balance of your questions rather
                                      than me monopolising the
                                      conversation.</div>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>-- </div>
                                        <div>Jeremy Malcolm</div>
                                        <div>Senior Global Policy
                                          Analyst</div>
                                        <div>Electronic Frontier
                                          Foundation</div>
                                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="https://eff.org/"
                                          target="_blank">https://eff.org</a><br>
                                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org"
                                          target="_blank">jmalcolm@eff.org</a>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161</div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>:: Defending Your Rights in
                                          the Digital World ::</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <span>____________________________________________________________<br>
                    You received this message as a subscriber on the
                    list:<br>
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                  </span></blockquote>
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          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <div class="gmail_signature">Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
          The Internet Democracy Project<br>
          <br>
          +91 9899028053 | @anjakovacs<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a><br>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">____________________________________________________________
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
`````````````````````````````````
anriette esterhuysen
executive director
association for progressive communications
po box 29755, melville, 2109, south africa
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anriette@apc.org">anriette@apc.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.apc.org">www.apc.org</a></pre>
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