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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>David,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is actually rather simple… You either have as your aspirational fundamental principle of governance—“Democracy” i.e. the rule of and for the people or something else, as in your case MSism as the rule of and for unaccountable (at your urging I’ll replace “self-selected” with the commensurable term “unaccountable”), “self” interested elites/stakeholders.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You either try to reform existing systems to become more democratic (including finding ways of ensuring that the range of non-elite voices are part of governance processes) or you look for ways of replacing less than fully democratic systems with unaccountable elite driven MS systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So which side are you on?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> David Cake [mailto:dave@difference.com.au] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 01, 2014 12:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Suresh Ramasubramanian; governance@lists.igcaucus.org; Sivasubramanian M; David Allen; bestbits@lists.bestbits.net; forum@justnetcoalition.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 25 Oct 2014, at 8:51 pm, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well first of all by definition “those who contribute” are “self-selected”… they chose to contribute and were not selected by others such as organizations, community groups, nation states or whoever to contribute on their behalf…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>The ability to self-select does not imply that participants are not representative of anyone. For example I usually participate in ICANN and IGF processes as a representative of an organisation with several hundred dues paying members, and must from time to time face re-election. But in a sense I am still self-selected, as I could still participate as an individual if I wished, and I participate as a volunteer not an employee. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Demographically etc. they practically are an “elite” in that they are part of that extremely small sub-set of possible contributors who have the skills, knowledge, resources (including time/money) to contribute where others who might have a concern or might be impacted do not have sufficient skills, knowledge, resources etc. …</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>But using the term 'self-selected elite' pejoratively becomes nonsensical iff you use it this broadly. Are you literally arguing that it is desirable for those who lack the skills and knowledge and resources to *directly* participate in policy processes? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>And even if we lower the barriers to entry, unless we lower them to practically zero, those who fully participate will always be somewhat of an elite in that sense. If we take ICANN for example, it is unlikely that we will get to the point at which a majority of the worlds population are even able to explain why the domain name system is. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Now, we can all agree that it is a good thing if the interests of those who lack the skills, knowledge and resources to participate in policy processes are represented, and surely civil society participation aids that goal.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <span class=apple-tab-span> </span>And we can all agree that lowering the barriers to participation so that full participation is not restricted to those able to find funding from somewhere for travel if needed, requiring fluent English, sometimes requiring understanding of fairly complex communication tools, etc. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>But if we use 'elite' so broadly that it includes anyone able to find the time to understand the issues and spend time participating, then directly participating in policy processes will always be restricted to an elite, and using the term pejoratively is nonsensical. <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Regards<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>David<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:suresh@hserus.net</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 3:25 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:purple'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a>; 'Sivasubramanian M'; 'David Allen'; michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><span style='color:purple'>bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</span></a>;<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org"><span style='color:purple'>forum@justnetcoalition.org</span></a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>RE: [bestbits] [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>How does 'those who contribute' equate to a self selected elite?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On 24 October 2014 5:59:09 pm "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><span style='color:purple'>gurstein@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid gray 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 5.0pt;margin-left:4.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The issue is not of course whether there should be the broadest base of “consultation” possible prior to decision making (including “multi-stakeholder” presumably because those involved will have direct knowledge of the affairs under discussion). This is quite different from “governance” which includes processes of actual decision making—allocation of resources, determination of benefits and so on. Including corporate foxes (for example) to guard public henhouses strikes me as an exceedingly bad way of proceeding.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The issue is to whom are the decision makers ultimately accountable—in a Democracy, aspirationally to “the people”, in a MSist world to self-selected elite “stakeholders”.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"><span style='color:purple'>bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of</b>Sivasubramanian M<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 1:06 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>David Allen<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:purple'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a>; Bits<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><span style='color:purple'>bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</span></a>;<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org"><span style='color:purple'>forum@justnetcoalition.org</span></a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Dear David Allen,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It requires different variations of the Multi-Stakeholder model for</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>different purposes. For the purpose of Internet Governance, we have 700 seats in the room with 7000 participants in rotation, with 70 million others listening, which is sufficient. If we are extending this thought to the government of Nations or the World, then it would not be a replacement for Democracy, but an enhancement (or call it a Complement), in the sense that the Elected Representatives and the Appointed Functionaries would involve the rest of the people in day to day debates and decisions by using the Multi-stakeholder model. So, in a scenario where the multi-stakeholder model is extended to the larger arena of Governance, after elections, those elected would make choices by the multi-staekholder model.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>There is a positive, apolitical reason why Multi-stakeholder model would be advantageous. We often find that Governments do not always find solutions to problems, some of which are complex problems. Think of the multi-stakeholder process as a process of consulting Stakeholders who are experts in their own respective sphere. Governments get to have varied expertise leading to creative solutions to problems that they are either unable to solve, or ineffectively resolve.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Sivasubramanian M</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>Sivasubramanian M</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>+1 (213) 300 8293 Oct 11-19 2014<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:19 AM, David Allen <<a href="mailto:David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ah yes, you complain that, after elections, only those elected make choices. Though of course, those who did the electing did make a choice, of their representatives, in the first place ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But you imagine some evolution to a model where anyone who shows up has a place - and those who do not, of course, well too bad for them ... Hmmm ...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In the first case, there is opportunity for the masses to speak through the ballot box. And for the second place, you will arrange for a table with 7 billion places at it? And arrange to get everyone there? So, since there is no ballot box, they can speak?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or, you prefer CJ Leung's [Hong Kong] approach, where we 'don't want to be representing the poor folk'? So ceding power to the powerful?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Oct 24, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>isolatedn@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It is not fair to say that the Multistakeholder model restricts participation. In fact the opposite is true because this new model has a working framework in place for bringing in participants other than elected representatives and appointed functionaries ( would not be very wrong to class these them both under "Government") to the table. And it is too early in the evolutionary phase of multistakeholder model to draw a conclusion that the participating stakeholders<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>are not representative enough. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The contrary of what you said is true. By its definition, by its intentions, and by the framework already in place, Multistakeholderism DOES extend AND broaden the opportunity for EFFECTIVE participation. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>Sivasubramanian M</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 11:49 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>gurstein@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>MSism as presented bears absolutely no relationship to Participatory Democracy, in fact it is exactly the opposite—rather than extending or broadening the opportunity for effective participation MSism restricts this by putting the condition of “stakeholdership”<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</span></a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><span style='color:purple'>bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</span></a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>