<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 24 Oct 2014, at 11:08 pm, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Of course these models of governance are aspirations—goals, directions towards which we strive, but which equally have the effect of strongly conditioning our current decisions and directions—which is why this discussion is not theoretical but extremely practical.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, I for one find that JNC positions, which are effectively critical of all current models to some extent, where more directed to practical positive outcomes. </div><div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Is the direction towards which we strive in the area of global (Internet) governance one that maximizes democracy (rule by and for the people) or one that maximizes multi-stakeholderism (rule by and for the elite who have “stakes”)? Simple question.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Disingenous question, as you are sbsolutely aware that many on this list would regard your characterisation of multi-stakeholderism as wildly misleading. And, for that matter, many would regard JNC positions as frequently, while rhetorically applauding democracy, as in practical terms leading in the opposite direction. </div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Siva went on to suggest that MSism is the next stage beyond democracy an even stronger position</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In some respects, it may be, considering what you regard it as evolving from. If you regard democracy as being strict majoritarianism in all things then MSism surely stands in opposition to that, but that is an incredibly naive position on democracy held by practically no one. <br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> – that is that rule by and for the people has now somehow become obsolete in the face of the overwhelming ascendance of certain private corporations, certain elite groups, certain countries and their allies.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The view of multi-stakeholder processes you have is one that I feel can only be maintained by dedicated non-engagement. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Civil Society of course has traditionally (classically) supported democracy and the broadest base of participation in the structures and operations of governance. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Indeed. And it should continue to do so. This is not, however, necessarily in opposition to multi-stakeholderism, especially in transnational fora in which democratic mechanisms do not practically exist. <br><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">But in the absence of a denial of these propositions rejecting Democracy presented by Siva and others it would appear that that too has become obsolete.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Siva simply said he didn't feel that discussing this particular issue at this point in time, which would require first a thorough debunking of your constant urge to mis-characterise both multi-stakeholderism and democracy, is not a high priority. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Your efforts to construe a desire not to engage as meaning what you want it to mean are an empty rhetorical position that proves nothing. Please stop.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Regards</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David<br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 7:52 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Gene Kimmelman'; michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Sivasubramanian M';<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; 'Avri Doria';<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>; 'IRP'<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] RE: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="">Why isn't a multi stakeholder process any less broad or inclusive than say a multi lateral government only model, or a Parliamentary model in which a few elected representatives (whom you may not even have voted for), or a bureaucrat employed by the government elected by a country, determines policy that affects you?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="">True participatory democracy, going by the letter of that wiki definition, appears to be found in the cantons of Switzerland I guess, or on a smaller scale, in a local club where every member has a voice and a stake on where to hold their annual event, for example.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">On 24 October 2014 10:33:45 am "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: gray; border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 5pt; margin-left: 4.5pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">No, I don’t think so, Gene. </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Siva has made a very clear and simple statement here in the context of most of those in CS currently active in the IG space on an issue of quite central importance going forward.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would have thought that advocates of the MSist model would be only too delighted to make a public declaration of opposition on this matter, or by their silence indicate consent.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Gene Kimmelman [<a href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 7:21 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sivasubramanian M;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; Avri Doria; IGC;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>; IRP<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="">I'm sorry Michael, but I think silence -- at least on my part -- indicates that many of us just don't have the time to engage right now on the merits of this; I'm just too busy and think this may be something better to discuss in person at some future meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="">On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 9:59 AM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Perhaps we can assume here that silence is consent.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>michael gurstein [mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 6:51 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Sivasubramanian M'<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Avri Doria'; 'Bits<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>';<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; IRP;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks for this Sivasubramanian…</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Can I/we take this i.e. that MSism (governance by self-appointed elites) is the “next evolutionary stage of democracy” is a generally agreed upon position among the proponents of MSism?</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sivasubramanian M [<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 6:12 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Avri Doria; Bits<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Dear Michael Gurstein,</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">The definitions are reconciled when the multistakeholder model is viewed as the next phase of evolution of Democracy, and in this phase, it is in its initial stages of evolution with some aspects being defined.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Sivasubramanian M</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><a href="tel:%2B1%20%28213%29%20300%208293" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">+1 (213) 300 8293</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Oct 11-19 2014<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="">On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You can of course a la the Lewis Carroll’s the Queen of Hearts define anything you like as whatever you like but I’m very curious how your reconcile the current practice of MSism with this definition of Participatory Democracy (from Wikipedia</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b>Participatory democracy</b><span style=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is a process emphasizing the broad<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29" target="_blank" title="Participation (decision making)" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">participation</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of constituents in the direction and operation of political systems. Etymological roots of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy" target="_blank" title="Democracy" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">democracy</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Greek<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos" target="_blank" title="wikt:demos" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">demos</a></i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and<i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82" target="_blank" title="wikt:κράτος" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">kratos</a></i>) imply that the people are in power and thus that all democracies are participatory. …<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="">Participatory democracy strives to create opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making, and seeks to broaden the range of people who have access to such opportunities.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">It seems to me that decision making a la MSism by self-appointed elites (corporates, their governmental allies and whomever else they choose to participate) hardly qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making”.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">But maybe I’m missing something.</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">M</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:34 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="">On 23-Oct-14 08:20, michael gurstein wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style=""> If you take a look at my<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="">blog both the current post and several of the earlier ones you will see my<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="">argument that MSism is being presented as a form of global governance in<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="">competition with democratic governance.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><br><br>I haven't read your blog. But I always define multistakeholderism (m17m) as a form of participatory democracy that builds on the representative democracy that some few nations have put into effect as well as the bottom-up organic coming together of stakeholders, who sometime aggregate into stakeholder groups, on a particular theme. I define it as a form of democracy somewhere between basic representative democracy and full direct democracy.<br><br>I think many other accept some form of the m17m is a form of participatory democracy definition. So the frames of reference are really quite different.<br><br>avri<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""><br>_______________________________________________<br>IRP mailing list<br><a href="mailto:IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>