<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">FWDed as requested<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">"Richard Hill" <<a href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch">rhill@hill-a.ch</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>RE: [JNC - Forum] [bestbits] Principles (warning - long)</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">1 November 2014 7:35:00 pm AWST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">"Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal" <<a href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>, "David Cake" <<a href="mailto:dave@difference.com.au">dave@difference.com.au</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">"Best Bits" <<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>>, "Forum@Justnetcoalition. Org" <<a href="mailto:Forum@justnetcoalition.org">Forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';"><<a href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch">rhill@hill-a.ch</a>><br></span></div><br><div>Dear David,<br><br>Since I don't subscribe to BestBits, I would appreciate it if you would<br>forward this message to that list.<br><br>I will reply here only to small portions of David's message below.<br><br>Best,<br>Richard<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Le 1 nov. 2014 à 11:21, David Cake a écrit :<br><br></blockquote><br>SNIP<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Now, I am sure that JNC members are opposed to the excesses of<br></blockquote>non-transparency<br><blockquote type="cite">such as the TPPA, but it isn't clear to what extent this is a high<br></blockquote>priority for<br><blockquote type="cite">the JNC,<br></blockquote><br>The JNC has explicitly called for the ITU to be fully transparent, both by<br>co-signing a call to that effect from multiple organizations, and in its own<br>statement to the ITU. See<br><br><a href="http://justnetcoalition.org/sites/default/files/ITU_PP_2014.pdf">http://justnetcoalition.org/sites/default/files/ITU_PP_2014.pdf</a><br><br>and<br><br>https://www.apc.org/en/pubs/open-civil-society-letter-transparency-itu-pleni<br>po<br><br><blockquote type="cite">considering some members past support for the ITU in its more closed era,<br></blockquote>etc.<br><br>Anybody who has followed ITU in any detail knows that I (Richard Hill) have<br>worked diligently since 2001 to make the ITU more transparent.<br><br>SNIP<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It is also worth noting that these two principles, openness and<br></blockquote>transparency,<br><blockquote type="cite">are closely tied. Admitting stakeholders with a strong interest in the<br></blockquote>outcome<br><blockquote type="cite">of proceedings (such as commercial operators) is acceptable<br></blockquote><br>I would say desirable and necessary.<br><br>But that does not imply that they should be able to veto decisions.<br><br>If you cannot make decisions that industry does not like, they you won't<br>have seat belts in cars, prohibitions on cigarette advertising, etc.<br><br>SNIP<br><br><blockquote type="cite">And, of course, there is the principe of a commitment to consensus decision<br></blockquote>making.<br><br>That's probably where we differ, depending on how one defines consensus.<br><br>If it is unanimity, then consensus can lead to paralysis. Or even to giving<br>private companies veto power over things like safety standards.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It is also worth noting that there are a great many subtleties in the exact<br>definition of consensus used (ICANN identifies at least 5 within its<br></blockquote>processes,<br><blockquote type="cite">and there are several more being used in the IG space), and some may<br>be more practical or desirable than others.<br></blockquote><br>Yes. Norbert Bollow and I have sketched out some ideas, see the last part<br>of the paper at:<br><br> http://www.apig.ch/best_practices.pdf<br><br>But I agree with you that working out the details is a non-trivial exercise,<br>and will require some thinking. And no, I don't think that the IETF's<br>version of "rough consensus" is suitable for public policy matters.<br><br>SNIP<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I'd love to be told that, for example, those JNC members who previously<br></blockquote>were<br><blockquote type="cite">OK with ITU restrictions on document sharing are now willing to commit<br>to a position of strong advocacy for ITU transparency,<br></blockquote><br>See above for the JNC position regarding ITU transparency.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Working out where there is general consensus on principles for improvement<br>of existing fora would be useful.<br></blockquote><br>Yes. I already invited Anne to cooperate to draft a document that captures<br>the areas on which we agree, and also the areas on which we disagree. But I<br>don't recall any agreement regarding how to proceed to draft such a<br>document.<br><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>