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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 24 October 2014 07:25 PM,
Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:1494270a940.2824.4f968dcf8ecd56c9cb8acab6370fcfe0@hserus.net"
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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Does that mean
'people who step
up to do real work'? That would be stakeholders. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">There are other
steakholders
who don't have any sweat or other equity invested in a
process but still
demand a stake.. <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
All<br>
<br>
In fact, the above is a very good, if somewhat inadvertent,
description of the neolib approach to governance that the IG style
multistakeholder- ism embodies. <br>
<br>
Those who 'really contribute' - read, the rich and the able - get
to vote, and the free riders - read, the poor and the unwashed - do
not count... <br>
<br>
One obviously cannot directly say in this age that rich will vote
and control governance and poor do not deserve a role or a vote...
Instead of speaking of their poverty, it is their inabilities that
get spoken of (which is considered the cause of their poverty). And
if those who do not have the 'ability' are given a role in
governance, they will only use to extract what is deserving not
theirs. This is social darwinism, a well known doctrine of neolibs.
<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1494270a940.2824.4f968dcf8ecd56c9cb8acab6370fcfe0@hserus.net"
type="cite">
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<p style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
24 October 2014 9:51:53 am "michael gurstein"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><gurstein@gmail.com></a> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0
0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left:
0.75ex;">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
for
this Sivasubramanian…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Can
I/we
take this i.e. that MSism (governance by
self-appointed elites) is the
“next evolutionary stage of democracy” is a generally
agreed upon position
among the proponents of MSism?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Sivasubramanian
M [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014
6:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Avri Doria; Bits
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits]
Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU
Plenipot joint
recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Dear
Michael
Gurstein,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">The
definitions
are reconciled when the multistakeholder model is
viewed as the next phase
of evolution of Democracy, and in this phase, it
is in its initial stages
of evolution with some aspects being
defined.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Sivasubramanian
M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">+1 (213) 300 8293 Oct 11-19
2014<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct
23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, michael gurstein <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can
of course a la the Lewis Carroll’s the Queen
of Hearts define anything
you like as whatever you like but I’m very
curious how your reconcile the
current practice of MSism with this definition
of Participatory Democracy
(from Wikipedia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Participatory
democracy</b> is a process emphasizing the
broad <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29"
target="_blank" title="Participation (decision
making)">participation</a>
of constituents in the direction and operation
of political systems.
Etymological roots of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy"
target="_blank" title="Democracy">democracy</a>
(Greek <i><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos"
target="_blank" title="wikt:demos">demos</a></i>
and <i><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82"
target="_blank" title="wikt:κράτος">kratos</a></i>)
imply that the people
are in power and thus that all democracies are
participatory.
…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Participatory
democracy
strives to create opportunities for all members
of a population
to make meaningful contributions to
decision-making, and seeks to broaden
the range of people who have access to such
opportunities.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It
seems to me
that decision making a la MSism by
self-appointed elites (corporates, their
governmental allies and whomever else they
choose to participate) hardly
qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all
members of a population to
make meaningful contributions to
decision-making”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">But
maybe I’m
missing something.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">M</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Avri Doria<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 23, 2014
12:34
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on
period for ITU Plenipot joint
recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
23-Oct-14
08:20, michael gurstein wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre> If you take a look at my
blog both the current post and several of the earlier ones you will see my
argument that MSism is being presented as a form of global governance in
competition with democratic governance.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<br>
I
haven't read your blog. But I always define
multistakeholderism
(m17m) as a form of participatory democracy
that builds on the
representative democracy that some few
nations have put into effect as well
as the bottom-up organic coming together of
stakeholders, who sometime
aggregate into stakeholder groups, on a
particular theme. I define it
as a form of democracy somewhere between
basic representative democracy and
full direct democracy.<br>
<br>
I think many other accept some form of the
m17m is a form of participatory democracy
definition. So the frames
of reference are really quite
different.<br>
<br>
avri<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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