<div dir="ltr">Why not try continuing the discussion, but temporarily banning the use of the word "multistakeholderism" and all of its related terms? This would involve more words, more typing, more time reading, but would save time in the long run because each contributor to the discussion would be forced to describe exactly what he/she is talking about, and the discussion itself would be clarified.<div>(Other possible candidates for the temporary ban are democracy and liberalism/ neo-liberalism)</div><div>Deirdre</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 October 2014 11:30, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It is interesting to see that those who are amongst the most vocal and public advocates for MSism are also those who refuse to actually indicate what they mean by MSism.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Gene Kimmelman [mailto:<a href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com" target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 8:11 AM</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Sivasubramanian M; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; Avri Doria; IGC; <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>> IRP<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Yes, I am very busy making public declarations as appropriate on important matters. And I'm sure I and many others will address this issue when we see the right time and place to do so. Sorry it may not serve your purposes of how and when you'd like to engage people. But I'm sorry, you shouldn't draw any particular conclusions from it other than what you care to believe.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:32 AM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">No, I don’t think so, Gene. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Siva has made a very clear and simple statement here in the context of most of those in CS currently active in the IG space on an issue of quite central importance going forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I would have thought that advocates of the MSist model would be only too delighted to make a public declaration of opposition on this matter, or by their silence indicate consent.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Gene Kimmelman [mailto:<a href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com" target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 7:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Sivasubramanian M; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; Avri Doria; IGC; <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>> IRP<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">I'm sorry Michael, but I think silence -- at least on my part -- indicates that many of us just don't have the time to engage right now on the merits of this; I'm just too busy and think this may be something better to discuss in person at some future meeting.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 9:59 AM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Perhaps we can assume here that silence is consent.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> michael gurstein [mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 6:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sivasubramanian M'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Avri Doria'; 'Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>'; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; IRP; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks for this Sivasubramanian…</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Can I/we take this i.e. that MSism (governance by self-appointed elites) is the “next evolutionary stage of democracy” is a generally agreed upon position among the proponents of MSism?</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Sivasubramanian M [<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 6:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Avri Doria; Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Dear Michael Gurstein,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">The definitions are reconciled when the multistakeholder model is viewed as the next phase of evolution of Democracy, and in this phase, it is in its initial stages of evolution with some aspects being defined.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Sivasubramanian M</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="tel:%2B1%20%28213%29%20300%208293" target="_blank">+1 (213) 300 8293</a> Oct 11-19 2014<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">You can of course a la the Lewis Carroll’s the Queen of Hearts define anything you like as whatever you like but I’m very curious how your reconcile the current practice of MSism with this definition of Participatory Democracy (from Wikipedia</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p><b>Participatory democracy</b> is a process emphasizing the broad <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29" title="Participation (decision making)" target="_blank">participation</a> of constituents in the direction and operation of political systems. Etymological roots of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy" title="Democracy" target="_blank">democracy</a> (Greek <i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos" title="wikt:demos" target="_blank">demos</a></i> and <i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82" title="wikt:κράτος" target="_blank">kratos</a></i>) imply that the people are in power and thus that all democracies are participatory. …<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Participatory democracy strives to create opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making, and seeks to broaden the range of people who have access to such opportunities.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It seems to me that decision making a la MSism by self-appointed elites (corporates, their governmental allies and whomever else they choose to participate) hardly qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making”.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">But maybe I’m missing something.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">M</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 23-Oct-14 08:20, michael gurstein wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre> If you take a look at my blog both the current post and several of the earlier ones you will see my argument that MSism is being presented as a form of global governance in competition with democratic governance.<u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>I haven't read your blog. But I always define multistakeholderism (m17m) as a form of participatory democracy that builds on the representative democracy that some few nations have put into effect as well as the bottom-up organic coming together of stakeholders, who sometime aggregate into stakeholder groups, on a particular theme. I define it as a form of democracy somewhere between basic representative democracy and full direct democracy.<br><br>I think many other accept some form of the m17m is a form of participatory democracy definition. So the frames of reference are really quite different.<br><br>avri<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>IRP mailing list<br><a href="mailto:IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" target="_blank">IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp" target="_blank">https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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