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    <br>
    <font face="Verdana">Milton<br>
      <br>
      There are two levels to this discussion, one is a simple
      argumentative-ness, and a second one which in my view address the
      key issue of  who or which actors can and should be considered as
      the primary target of global civil society advocacy, as being the
      prime threats to the kind of global Internet that we want to see
      in global public interest. And an associated question being, which
      actors are blocking rightful public interest governance of the
      global Internet. <br>
      <br>
      I will first respond in this email to your largely superficial if
      not misleading arguments</font><font face="Verdana"><font
        face="Verdana">, and address the key underlying question in my
        next email. excuse my indulgence.... parminder <br>
        <br>
        <br>
      </font></font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 05 October 2014 11:53 PM,
      Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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            name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.8pt"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                    href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
                  <br>
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            Throughout this email, you seamlessly move between UN based
            international law making and US law making, which may get
            forced on the world bec of the US's economic and technical
            might, as if there isnt any real substantive difference
            between the two... <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              Nope. I make it very clear when I am talking about one or
              the other. Your point was “the U.S.” was preventing us
              from talking about certain issues. My contention was
              simply that the U.S. is talking about those things
              extensively at its own domestic level, and that indeed,
              many of those dialogues originated in the U.S. and went
              transnational. No confusion as to levels.</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: No.  I said, and I quote "We badly need a global discussions on
    and adoption of a model law on IP based telecommunications, and on
    net neutrality. But any such possibility will be resisted tooth and
    nail, and a lot of resources thrown into it." <br>
    <br>
    What I am saying is that US and its cohorts prevent global
    discussion and *adoption* of needed public policy frameworks in the
    IG space... Do you content this statement. if you do, lets focus our
    discussion on that. Or else, concede.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">When did I say there is no global
            discussion on net neutrality ?<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              In your original post. Glad to see you backing off here. </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Can you please quote me, instead of insisting that I said
    something which I did not, and then saying I am backing off.....
    What I said is quoted above, I never said "there is no global
    discussion on net neutrality". It would be stupid to say that - I
    myself am a member of two global coalitions on NN. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">... As for the resistance to it and the
            resources thrown in for that sake I have historical details
            of how an NN debate and position forming got resisted on the
            IGC list as well in the MAG, for years, before it was
            finally taken up this year, <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              Another factual error. See this, a NN workshop from 2011:
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://intgovforum.org/cms/component/content/article?id=883:ig4d-workshop-183-a-possible-framework-for-global-net-neutrality">http://intgovforum.org/cms/component/content/article?id=883:ig4d-workshop-183-a-possible-framework-for-global-net-neutrality</a></span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Again, I do know there have been workshops on NN at the IGF....
    One of them, at Baku, was actually organised by me for ITfC. Can you
    stop producing meaningless and diversionary 'evidence'.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, I know the European Commission as
            well as Council of Europe has been working on it, and I have
            participated especially in the latter's effort. <span
              style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              So apparently the “US” effort to prevent discussion has
              failed there, too. </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Yes, US does get away with everything it wants. We all know
    that. But it has succeeding in stopping NN being taken up at any
    truly global policy making/ framing forum, and you know that. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Well, yes. How much ever may I like to,
            we are just not able to come off the colonial and post
            colonial yoke. Dont we still take everything of worth from
            the west? <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              A typical Parminderism. Someone notes the irony of you
              claiming the “the U.S.” is stopping us from discussing an
              issue that is being actively discussed in large part
              because of US domestic politics, and you transmute that
              into a claim that everything of worth originates from the
              West. </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: I repeat, US does try its best that global Internet related
    public policy issues are not discussed and taken up by globally
    democratic forums in any manner that could move towards their global
    democratic resolution. As for your assertion that many of these
    issues are beign discussed globally "becuase of US domestic
    politics", this just betrays the symptoms of the very regrettable
    diseases of seeing the US as the centre of the world that many US
    policy makers, and policy commentators suffer from. It is not going
    to be very useful, but still let me repeat - we discuss Internet
    public policy issues globally becuase they impact us and not becuase
    ofUS domestic politics...<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Apart from US and its corporate allies
            being the chief instigators for filtering the debates at the
            IGF, <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              The chief instigators of filtering debates at the IGF are
              those who don’t want to disturb the IG status quo, as you
              know well. But that camp includes people in Europe, Latin
              America, Africa, Asia as well as “the U.S.”</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS:Has it not been amply clear that the US political and business
    establishment leads the pack and is its epicentre..<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
              I’ve run up against those filters as much as you have,
              btw, only about 5 years before you. Ask yourself why I
              wasn’t asked to be on the IANA transition panel at either
              Netmundial or IGF, for example. But I am from the US. Why
              didn’t they welcome a fellow imperialist hegemonic white
              male? How do you explain this, my friend? </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: You are slipping into a rhetoric which has no connection to
    anything I may have said. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maybe
              there are substantive policy differences at stake that
              cannot be reduced to 1970s-vintage state-centric
              worldviews? </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Interesting! Ask Snowden how state-centric the world still is..
    That is just one example. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maybe
              “the US” is the wrong label to be using to characterize
              your enemies? Your whole mentality is still locked into
              the nation-state mindset. </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: This point will be addressed in my next email,<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">The US rules the global Internet,
            politically and economically . Any civil society actor whose
            chief aim is a better distribution of power (that at least
            is what civil society used to be) would naturally make the
            US as its chief target.<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">MM:

              But redistributing power to whom, and for what purpose?
            </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: To people, for their benefit. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
              First, it is obvious that you are talking exclusively
              about a redistribution of power among nation-states</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Where is it obvious? However, yes nation states are one of the
    main vehicles of such redistribution, since they are still the
    primary vehicle of people's democratic representation ( the US
    constitution’s "we the people..") .  And seeking to dismantle this
    system of democratic representation without building a more
    democratic one is one of the most important contemporary strategies
    to check redistribution of power towards the people. <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
              – an approach that is intrinsically hostile to civil
              society.
            </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Please expand this.... I think the hostility is to the rule of
    free unregulated market which is basically rule of big business...
    It is the latter's increasing power that is hostile to civil society
    ..<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
              Further, I don’t think a redistribution that, say,
              strengthens the Russian or Chinese states is anything to
              get excited about</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS:To the extent that it can decrease illegitimate US's political
    and economic power (heard to the recent BRICS bank, you sure would
    say it is inherently hostile to 'civil society', right!) . To the
    extent it may empower the state vis a vis its own people, no.... Two
    different battles, bot important. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
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              – or haven’t you kept your eyes on what is happening in
              Hong Kong? Perhaps you will follow Putin and Xi and blame
              all the HK unrest of “the U.S.”?</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    PJS: Slipping again into unsustainable rhetoric... Since when market
    fundamentalism has become revolutions friendly... I fully support
    the HK democratic movement, and so do colleagues inside HK who work
    with us.  BTW, the only comment on the HK unrest I saw in IG lsits
    was one of Michael Gurstein showing detials of HK's Internet speeds
    etc and wondering whether it had to do with the protests. The whole
    multistakeholderist group and the Internet freedom did not utter a
    word... So, dont create accusations which have no basis... <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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              All part of our attempt to maintain global hegemony. So
              let’s suppress freedom and democracy in Hong Kong so we
              have a better distribution of power? </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    PJS: Milton, you need to do better than this.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
              don’t think strengthening the Indian or Turkish or South
              African states is such a great idea, either. All of them
              seem to be more interested in Internet control than
              anything else. </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Good, you were not able to bring yourself to mention India :) ..
    Anyway, nation state is a complex reality, and a general one kind of
    branding versus other may not help. Context matters. Within South
    Africa, almost all reform movements will be aimed against the state
    (happens in India and we participate in so many of them.).. At the
    global level, it is the US political and economic establishment
    which undoubtedly has the greatest concentration of power and this
    the greatest threat. In confronting this threat, most developing
    country governments can be used as allies. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Again
              I ask you to frame your debate and discourse in terms of
              substantive policy choices and not polarized power blocs
              centered on nation-states.</span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Well, I greatly admire the US as a nation of people. My problem is
    with its political and economic might which is overbearing and a
    threat to the world. As for substantive policy choices just go to
    the<a href="http://www.justnetcoalition.org/"> Just Net Coalition
      website</a>, and read its <a
      href="http://www.justnetcoalition.org/delhi-declaration">Delhi
      Declaration</a> as well as more than 20 statements made by it in
    the last 6 months. And if you find another IG group which is clearer
    and more profuse in offering policy choices let me know. All I have
    heard most IG groups is just saying over and over again, in with
    multistakeholder-ism, down with UN... Hardly a portfolio of
    "substantive policy choices".<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5cc07bf192ce484fb6fcec8d03508871@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
      type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
              Your mode of discourse is essentially a Cold War
              mentality, where our political choices are centered on
              being for or against the US.  <br>
            </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    In fact it is entirely post cold war, where the US has become a
    unipolar political and economic power, with no brakes or
    constraints, which is leading to an unsustainable concentration of
    power. The global Internet, born post cold war, is its prime
    example. Pity that there are so many in the global civil society
    that side with this greatest concentration of power on the global
    Internet "against civil society interests" to quote your somewhat
    flippant phrase.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    parminder <br>
    <blockquote
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
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