<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I stand by my previous remarks, but add the following:<div><br></div><div>The UN has lots of potential to do good, but is often constrained in ways that reduce its effectiveness substantially. I worked at the UN Secretariat for 13 years, and I know this in depth, first hand. Your comments regarding innovation spare are contradicted by my experience.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not trying to put everyone's mind in fear. Don't attribute to me things that are not true.</div><div><br></div><div>There is no question that there are anticompetitive elements in the world's telecommunication system. There are points of contention in almost all countries and industries. But that does not in general make countries and organizations uniformly evil. This argument has nothing to do with having a strong and functioning IGF, except maybe that such an IGF could help to ameliorate some of the existing problems.</div><div><br></div><div>I suspect that all organizations can be improved. The IGF is not a dead machine as you state, but an evolving one. There are differing views regarding which way it should evolve. Your specific view is not universally shared.</div><div><br></div><div>I look forward to the results of current efforts by the private sector and the technical community to build a more durable base for the IGF. I trust that you do also, and that you do not reject support from sectors other than your own.</div><div><br></div><div>Based upon no intervention from others, I think that this thread has achieved all the usefulness that it will have, and I will be reluctant to carry it further.</div><div><br></div><div>George</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 1, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Jean-Christophe Nothias <<a href="mailto:jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com">jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Most surprisingly to me George, you have a very narrow view about going from A (current state of IGF - dead-end) to B (a reinvented IGF).<div><br></div><div>Instead of trying putting into everyone's mind doubt and fear (my god, the UN budget!!) about the weak points of the UN, (we all see weak points in the US as well and thanks to people like Suzan Crawford and Jaron lanier to be the honest observers of what's going wrong in the telecommunication and Internet world), instead of making your statement on the assumption that the UN is not being compatible with an undefined MS model that has failed as has the IGF itself, instead of all that and more, I would encourage you to allow us some room for a refreshing thinking. And allow innovation. As I wrote in my first email today, the UN system offers more innovative space and room for imagination than any other governing space. For a young institution created during the second world war, I find this encouraging.</div><div><br></div><div>A few examples:</div><div>Interpeace is a great peacebuilding NGO that was created from within the UN ; the GAVI alliance was created thanks to the UN and not just because of its weak points, the R20 was launched by a UN senior executive at UNDP, I could bring dozens of examples of how the UN successfully gave birth to many different kind of "birds".</div><div><br></div><div>These spin-offs and institutional start-ups have their freedom, still having a strong link to the UN, and part of its DNA, some of it isn't that bad after all in terms of universal declaration of human rights to name a few. There are not intergovernmental bodies per say. But they have some UN blood. You don't necessarily need a UN budget to achieve all of that. We have plenty other options, and indeed Parminder is right, ICANN can put into its bylaws that part of its revenues goes to that future body as a recognition of IGF making better recommendation for public policy and interest. ICANN one day says this is not its business, the next day explains us that it does because no one else does it. Amusing.</div><div><br></div><div>The IGF is as we know it today a dead machine. Unless CS unites and suggests (not even request) a way forward. Not necessarily a dream land, but at least something that capitalizes over the failures, the vacuums, the ideas (some clearly written in the NetMundial different statements (remember the opening speech, all the contributions, the final statement, the comments). So yes we need the UN at this stage, because IG has a BIG problem of legitimacy, a problem that the MS model has only but enlarged, taking us all to an amazing point of distrust. Anyway we can not do as if the IGF wasn't a child of the UN.</div><div><br></div><div>So if there is a way forward, let's take what we can from the UN to incorporate some legitimacy, democracy and trust (desire for democracy) in these discussions.</div><div><br></div><div>This is what I would recognized - from people like you George - as a fantastic achievement. </div><div><br></div><div>Remember that the UN was made in a in time-breaking fashion by a club of willing over a few months during the war. 10 years of the current IGF have done what? So yes it is time for a change. A BIG on. Stop guarding the gate, open it. Then you'll be surprised by the incredible advancement of things.</div><div><br></div><div>JC</div><div><br><div><div>Le 1 sept. 2014 à 23:52, George Sadowsky a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">There are other rigidities in the UN system that may not be compatible with the overall aims of the IGF. My Taiwan illustration was just that. And, by the way, to get a new activity into the UN regular budget is enormously difficult; the UN relies on so-called extra-budgetary funds for many of its initiatives, and that represents insecure funding. <div><br></div><div>In response to a previous post, I don't think that Carlos is suggesting that no funding come from the UN. I note that the Internet Society has just initiated a call for funding the IGF on a more permanent basis. In the past, ICANN has provided major funding, and so have some governments. </div><div><br></div><div>I see nothing wrong with accepting funding from all sectors, provided that the funding is used in a fair and responsible manner and is not used to promote the special interests of the sector. This has in part been the case so far, and is a reasonable model to promote. You may wish to add some caveats, but the principle stands. All sectors do have their own interests, but none are pure evil. All sectors have something to gain from the IGF or they would not contribute.</div><div><br></div><div>I wish that we could have discussions like this in a more cooperative mode rather than an environment of suspicion.</div><div><br></div><div>George<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 1, 2014, at 5:38 PM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<font face="Verdana">If not the UN then there is this tantalising
offer from the WEF, maybe that. It has either to be public funding
or corporate funding, </font>one can make one's choice which is
better. Because, even an organised public dialogue, much less the
more complex things that the IGF is being prepared for, cannot be
undertaken 'on the street' by 'people' without resources and some
holding organisation. If you have any doubt about this assertion,
please note that no one has proposed the World Social Forum to hold
the global IG process together, as the WEF is being proposed, if yet
somewhat cautiously. <br>
<br>
It is certainly strange how a special case of Taiwan is being
offered to show problems with the UN system, but one does not see
what is wrong with ICANN's US-hood or WEF's big business nature. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 02 September 2014 02:12 AM,
Vanda Scartezini wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D02A5F54.4A3C4%25vanda@uol.com.br" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I agree with Sadovsky. This idea goes into the direction of having IGF
totally controlled by government, than to promote enlarge participation on
IGF.
Any body inside UN shall obviously be under UN rules and this means also
long time to take decisions due to consultations to any government,
besides all other bureaucracy anyone used to deal with UN can easily
report.
Better not to go through this path.
Vanda Scartezini
Polo Consultores Associados
Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004
01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil
Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253
Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464
On 9/1/14, 11:54, "George Sadowsky" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com"><george.sadowsky@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">All,
There is an issue that has not been mentioned in this thread. The UN is
not totally representative of the world's population, and decisions
regarding who is a members state and who is not are political decisions
made by the UN General Assembly.
Case in point: no one from Taiwan is allowed to participate, even as a
non-speaking participant, in the IGF. There was a rumor in Athens (2006)
that a Taiwanese was planning to come, and those of us on the MAG at the
time who were working the event were told to let management know if he
showed up so that he could be denied admission.
Another case, in the opposite direction, is that of Palestine. It was
finally allowed UN status in the 1990s only when Israel was unable to
further block its entry, and then it was given 'observer status.' This
delayed providing it with a country code, and therefore a country code
TLD to be used in the territory and to be included in the DNS root zone.
I speak from personal involvement in both of those events. There are
probably others which are similar and which I am not aware of.
So any move to unite the IGF and the UN can have consequences that are
not foreseen, and and may well not be in the interests of democratic,
bottom up, participatory activity. Please, in your enthusiasm, do not
increase -- and decrease if possible -- your reliance upon UN
administration/control/funding of future IGFs.
George
On Sep 1, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ca@cafonso.ca"><ca@cafonso.ca></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If it has to become a formal body, I would not like to see it becoming
a sort of UN agency. If it is not a UN agency, funding should come from
other sources.
--c.a.
On 09/01/2014 09:27 AM, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I support the call.
It should be accompanied with the UN providing permanent institutional
funding for it. Nothing can be permanent and stable without clear and
stable source of funding.
BTW, the IGF is right now a 'project' of UNDESA, and projects normally
are not permanent. For being permanent it has to be an incorporated
body
with institutional funding.
Anne, in the CSTD WG on IGF improvements, IT for Change and some
developing country asked for a part of domain names tax collected by
ICANN to be dedicated to IGF funding. This has to be done in a
statutory/ constitutional manner and not as ad hoc, upto ICANN,
measure.
parminder
On Monday 01 September 2014 02:13 PM, Anne Jellema wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Actually the point about stable and predictable funding - and I would
add to that, transparent and accountable financial management - seems
just as important as (and closely linked to) the permanent mandate.
WF continues to advocate that a % of gTLD revenues be set aside for
this purpose, as well as for other public benefit purposes, but if it
is considered unwise to mix ICANN issues with IGF issues then perhaps
it's enough just to reference the need for expanded, predictable
funding that is transparently accounted for.
cheers
Anne
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Eduardo Bertoni
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ebertoni@alumni.gwu.edu">ebertoni@alumni.gwu.edu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ebertoni@alumni.gwu.edu"><mailto:ebertoni@alumni.gwu.edu></a>> wrote:
I support Joana´s idea re taking into account what the NetMundial
final declaration says. I would only add that the "next" IGF
should do better in linking its agenda and wok with the regional
IGFs.
e
Eduardo
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Joana Varon
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joana@varonferraz.com">joana@varonferraz.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joana@varonferraz.com"><mailto:joana@varonferraz.com></a>> wrote:
Agree.
At NETMundial final statement, this is what we have on IGF:
"There is a need for a strengthened Internet Governance Forum
(IGF). Important recommendations to that end were made by the
UN CSTD working group on IGF improvements. It is suggested
that these recommendations will be
implemented by the end of 2015. Improvements should include
inter-alia:
a.Improved outcomes: Improvements can be implemented including
creative
ways of providing outcomes/recommendations and the analysis of
policy options;
b.Extending the IGF mandate beyond five-year terms;
c. Ensuring guaranteed stable and predictable funding for the
IGF, including
through a broadened donor base, is essential;
d. The IGF should adopt mechanisms to promote worldwide
discussions
between meetings through intersessional dialogues.
A strengthened IGF could better serve as a platform for
discussing both long
standing and emerging issues with a view to contributing to
the identification of
possible ways to address them."
We could departure from that and add "ask the UN to make the
IGF a permanent body instead of renewing its mandate for
another limited term of 5 or 10 years."
1Net could also be a platform to facilitate this.
best
joana
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 4:48 AM, João Carlos R. Caribé
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joao.caribe@me.com">joao.caribe@me.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joao.caribe@me.com"><mailto:joao.caribe@me.com></a>> wrote:
Unfortunately I missed that meeting, so I full support
this idea count me on to support as I can.
_
João Carlos Caribé
(021) 8761 1967
(021) 4042 7727
Skype joaocaribe
Enviado via iPad
> Em 01/09/2014, às 11:33, Jeanette Hofmann
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jeanette@wzb.eu">jeanette@wzb.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeanette@wzb.eu"><mailto:jeanette@wzb.eu></a>> escreveu:
>
> Hi all,
>
> at the BB meeting yesterday we discussed the idea of a
BB statement that would ask the UN to make the IGF a
permanent body instead of renewing its mandate for another
limited term of 5 or 10 years.
> This idea found broad support among the attendees of the
BB meeting.
>
> Later on I discussed the content of such a statement
with other stakeholders at the IGF and I got the
impression that we might be able to draft a
cross-stakeholder statement together with the technical
community and the private sector. (Individual governments
support such a statement too but I am not sure it would be
possible within the few days available to coordiante
enough signatures by governments to make this an all
inclusive statement.)
>
> Right now, a multi-stakeholder statement coming out of
this IGF is only an idea that needs further exploration
within the respective groups. So, with this email to the
bb list and the IGC list I am asking for your opinions to
find out if such a cross-stakeholder statement would find
support in civil society.
>
> jeanette
>
> P.S. Lately, I have been unable to post to the IGC list.
If this email does not appear on the IGC list, would
someone be so kind to forward it?
>
____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>.
> To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
-- --
Joana Varon Ferraz
@joana_varon
PGP 0x016B8E73
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"><mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
--
Anne Jellema
CEO
+27 061 36 9352 (ZA)
+1 202 684 6885 (US)
@afjellema
*
*
*World Wide Web Foundation | 1110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500,
Washington DC, 20005, USA | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.webfoundation.org/">www.webfoundation.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.webfoundation.org/"><http://www.webfoundation.org/></a> | Twitter: @webfoundation*
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
To be removed from the list, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a>
For all other list information and functions, see:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a>
Translate this email: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
To be removed from the list, visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a>
For all other list information and functions, see:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a>
Translate this email: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>