<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>Assuming we’re genuinely trying to understand each other’s positions, my views on the short comings of the current system and proposals to move the debate forward are expressed in the submission to Netmundial</div><div>At <a href="http://bestbits.net/netmundial-roadmap/">http://bestbits.net/netmundial-roadmap/</a> which was available for comment for a month or more on the BB list – (without anyone providing substantial comments except for Marilia). It sets out my take on the issue.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that achieving a democratic approach to internet governance is enormously challenging and this is the best option of those practically available. </div><div><br></div><div>Where I think we disagree is that I think you believe governments should in the end, make the final decisions about the internet as they are the sole source of legitimacy (please correct me if I misunderstand you). I think this would be catastrophic for the internet's ability to promote free speech and open communication. I look at the Human Rights Council – occasionally chaired by some of the most hostile governments to human rights and see that it has often been catastrophic to human rights . </div><div><br></div><div>Nor do I see your distinction between government and business – don’t you think that the CCP central committee are also the wealthiest businessmen in China? – that in most repressive societies (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Russia) business and government are utterly intertwined – do you want such governments/business interests to dominate internet policy? You must know from your time at WGEC that this what they want?. Who represents my interests as a user in such a world? How is anyone represented?</div><div><br></div><div>And to be clear - I say this with respect for your position as I think you have valid concerns and we probably share the same goals – while clearly disagreeing on the means</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> "<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thursday, 6 March 2014 05:56<br><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> andrew Puddephatt <<a href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<bestbits@lists. net>" <<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br></div><div><br></div><div>
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p<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 March 2014 11:16 AM,
Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org" type="cite">
<div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">"not really sure what you are
seeing as an insult</span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">”</span></font></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">T</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">ry assuming that people you
disagree with have the same desire for democracy and
accountability as you but have a different understanding of
how to reach it <br>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have tried my best, in last many months/ years, but have been
unable to understand how getting big business reps to have "equal
footing" parity with government reps (however imperfectly elected
govs they may come from) in terms of <i><b>making actual decisions
on public policy issues</b></i> is compatible with democracy.
That is what I call anti- or post-democracy.<br>
<br>
And that is the precise issue/ question I posted yesterday with
respect to the principles submission proposed by some civil society
groups including yours, but got no response.<br>
<br>
However, if you think it is compatible with democracy do please
explain. We will withdraw the the anti-democratic label..<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org" type="cite">
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">J</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">ust try that mental exercise, re
read your e-mails to the list</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Else, this
kind of stuff is simply rhetoric - asking for mental exercises
and all. </font></font><br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org" type="cite">
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
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0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> michael gurstein
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thursday, 6
March 2014 05:03<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> andrew Puddephatt
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>
"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists. net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE:
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Insults by the by (not really sure what you are
seeing as an insult.. but anyway…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’ve taken the trouble here and elsewhere to
lay out some, what I think are serious issues
concerning MSism…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m still waiting for you or anyone to make
some significant counters to those arguments or even
address them in some serious way (something with a bit
more substance than red herrings about Chinese
billionaires and Mr. Cameron…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The US submission to the NETMundial refers to
“MSism” <b><u>9 times</u></b> in less than a page (it
doesn’t mention democracy even once).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You are evidently a strong supporter of MSism.
Perhaps you could give me a response to my
comments/criticisms or suggest how my arguments are
incorrect or my experiences are inconclusive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Andrew Puddephatt [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Actually,
far from being tedious, there are interesting and
multi stakeholder ideas in your proposition which in
a different place and in a different mood would be
good to explore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Unfortunately
your ideas don’t seem to be on the table in the WGEC
or WSIS reviews and I doubt that the nine
billionaires who run the Chinese Communist party,
the Supreme Leader of Iran, Mr Putin or Mr Cameron
my own prime minister would be too interested. So
I’d rather not see them in control of the internet
thank you very much – which was inter state
governance would mean (as opposed to ushering in a
new era of global democracy). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">As it
happens I’ve spent thirty years trying to promote
democracy and human rights so your gratuitous
insults wash off me but I’m curious as to why you
feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with
you? It is not an effective means of persuasion in
my experience so I suggest we terminate this
exchange from now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 04:02<br>
<b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ah… the “if I ruled the world”
challenge… yes, flattering but ultimately
inconsequential… I don’t (thank god) rule the
world… So my off the cuff solutions aren’t worth
all that much…</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I did a major project in sub-Saharan
Africa last year with Mwaki among others
addressing more or less this very question… and
the answer was… it’s complicated…</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It involved strengthening broad
structures of governance, putting technology
infrastructures into (the right) place(s),
training, developing appropriate mechanisms for
consultation/decision making… And yes the answer
was multi-stakeholder … but… not
multistakeholderist… multi-stakeholder within a
context which could accommodate and contain and
make multi-stakeholder consultation and
participation meaningful and useful for all
concerned including to strengthen democratic
governance and particularly figuring out how to
get governmental structures to adapt and respond.
To some degree this would be done in parallel to
existing democratic processes but interwoven with
them to use the democracy to reinforce the
consultations and the consultations to deepen and
reinforce the democracy.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sorry if this is tedious and not glib
enough for you but given world enough and time my
guess is that this kind of thing could work as
well in Ouagadougou as in downtown Tehran… not
sure about Hackney/Georgetown but it seems to work
well enough in Teeside and if we can get these
things to work in Ouga and Tehran and Teeside –
well “first we take Manhattan and then we take
Berlin.. *</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(And BTW it’s not me who is agitating
to jettison 300 or so years of democracy in favour
of some pig in a poke hatched in some US think
tank and being foisted on the world by a
self-interested cabal of the US State Department,
Google, various other OECD private corps, and
certain selected “civil society” organizations
including your own it would appear**</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">*Leonard Cohen.. <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85">http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">**</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">TOWARD A
SINGLE GLOBAL DIGITAL ECONOMY <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf">http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Andrew Puddephatt
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">I’m
sorry Mike </span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">���</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> you are not answering the question. If
you mean by multi-lateralism, negotiations about
a global environment conducted by states I want
to know - not why you think multi-stakeholderism
is crap - which you have discussed with all of
us at great and increasingly tedious length -
but what js your democratic alternative that
allows my interests – or any other citizens to
be represented in global negotiations?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Those
you disagree with are looking for ways to ensure
a broader range of voices – including states of
course as the most powerful actors- in the
governance debate.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Put
your option up for discussion and let’s see how
democratic that is to the resident of downtown
Tehran (or even Hackney where I live)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 02:57<br>
<b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Andrew (and Suresh…</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Those are quite legitimate
points/questions and very much worthy of
serious discussion and debate. </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">However, evoking (over and
over and over…) the undefined, undescribed,
undetailed multistakeholderist mantra doesn’t
get us any closer… </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The continuous
shapeshifting by the proponents of the MS meme
whenever they are challenged to get real
--well this isn’t quite “MSism”, it isn’t true
MSism, it will be better next time MSism,
doesn’t do anyone a service (except the
“wizards” behind the curtains). </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">From my own experience,
whenever MSism “gets real” it falls
apart—either it doesn’t have any operational
processes or related significant structures of
accountability so it can’t handle even the
most insignificant of challenges without some
form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught
or it simply ignores the issue and moves on.
Nor can it handle even the most
inconsequential of divergences/diversities of
opinion—the drive towards
convergence/consensus (and the associated
processes of marginalization and exclusion)
are terrifying to me if there were any real
chance of scaling. In the last century we had
a lot of experience (and several names) for
political systems that couldn’t deal with
challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted
on a managed consensus and forced choices “or
else… </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Democracy and
multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but
they have both taken us a considerable
distance down roads that allow us to be where
we are now and thinking about significant and
desirable ways forward into much more complex
decision environments. Moreover we now have
(the possibility of using) new tools to
support the extending of democratic
capabilities, the broader inclusion of
diversities, the extension of opportunities
for effective participation to previously
marginalized populations.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I see absolutely no reason
for civil society to be uncritically
supporting MSism as is obviously currently the
case. To my mind this goes against everything
that CS has traditionally stood for—the
broadening and deepening of accountability in
support of the public good, the strengthening
of democracy including through its extension
to the poor and marginalized, the developing
of public processes and methods to control the
unaccountable use of private power in
opposition to the public interest. </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">MSism is in its essence a
form of privatization of power—shifting of
power from the hands of people (however flawed
that might be) to the hands of those who for
the most part are unaccountable and
non-transparent in their actions, their
internal operations and in their structures.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would love to see some
demonstration that I am wrong or that I’ve
missed something but another round of “trust
them/us” is not going to cut it.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mike</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Andrew
Puddephatt [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014
6:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Michael</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Those of us less clever than
you are trying to figure out how to make
governance of a global system more equitable
and transparent and accountable. Clearly we
failed.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Can you explain to me how an
international inter state process is
democratic, assuming that is what you
believe (and if not what is your democratic
alternative to the submissions on BB?). How
are my interests represented by inter state
discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian
citizens, or women in Saudi Arabia or
Canadian academics? </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I see, so in
your world democracy (however flawed), is
to be replaced by Multistakeholderism
where there is no (evident) transparency
(T) or accountability (A) for the inputs
into the stakeholder processes, no
(evident) T or A for the outputs of the
stakeholder processes and the
stakeholders themselves are subject to no
effective T or A since they are some sort
of (interglalactic?) shapeshifters errr…
those with “role flexibilities”.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Have I missed
something here?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This may work
for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where
even as the curtain gets repeatedly
bunched up revealing the
(“non-existent”—we have it on the highest
possible authority—trust us) wizard
pulling the strings and T & A appears
to consist of repeated choruses of “trust
them it will get better” by a fawning
self-selected “Steering Committee”, but
surely in our world we might expect
something with a slightly higher reality
component.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014
4:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
parminder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <,<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial
submissions launched for endorsement
at bestbits.net</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On
5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">So, request a
clear response - do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b>
in <b><i>decision making</i></b>
about <b><i>public policies </i></b>between
gov and non gov actors.... And this
is not a petty point... Half of the
time of the WGEC got taken on this
kind of discussion. This is the
single most important point today,
if we can clarify nd possibly agree
on this point - rest is not too
difficult... Lets accept what is the
key point, and not skirt it...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Different people
who contributed to the submission,
even if they all endorse the final
result, will probably give you
different answers to that question.
I'm not sure that anyone is
interested in what my personal answer
is because I'm just an individual, but
I would say no I do not accept as a
general proposition that parity in
decision making is appropriate, which
is why I personally objected to that
language being used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For some issues,
it will be appropriate that the
stakeholders act as equals in the
decision making process (to the extent
that there is a "decision" at all).
In other areas, it won't be
appropriate and may be more
appropriate that although all
stakeholders are involved, one of them
will legitimately take a bigger role
than the others. For example
governments may take a leading role in
transnational human rights disputes,
the technical community may do so in
developing spam filtering standards,
civil society may do so in developing
human rights based principles for
judging government surveillance
practices, and even the private sector
may do so, say in setting prices for
the trading of IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This also implies
that the appropriate mechanism of
governance may differ in each case,
eg. laws, standards, markets. The
above all follows naturally if you
accept that there are no fixed
stakeholder roles, because the
appropriate roles will differ
depending on the circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">BTW, the German
government has the following to say in
its submission to NetMundial<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
Do you for instance agree to the above
formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Nope, don't agree
with the German government's formulation
because it maintains the fallacy of
fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">--</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">Jeremy Malcolm
PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">Internet lawyer,
ICT policy advocate,
geek</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">host -t NAPTR
5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk
-F! '{print $3}'</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">WARNING: This
email has not been
encrypted. You are strongly
recommended to enable
encryption at your end. For
instructions, see <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span>
</blockquote>
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