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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 March 2014 10:06 AM,
Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DABBA.1576D%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Actually, far from being
tedious, </span><span lang="EN-US">there are
interesting and multi stakeholder ideas in your
proposition.......</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Andrew, you just said to Michael in your previous email<br>
<br>
" ....which you have discussed with all of us at great and
increasingly tedious length....."<br>
<br>
Just reminding bec it seems you had forgotten.... and then also
there was this later talk of insults and so on....<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DABBA.1576D%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">which in a different
place and in a different mood would be good to explore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Unfortunately your ideas
don’t seem to be
on the table in the WGEC or WSIS reviews and I doubt that
the nine billionaires
who run the Chinese Communist party, the Supreme Leader of
Iran, Mr Putin or Mr
Cameron my own prime minister would be too interested. So
I’d rather not see them in control of the
internet thank you very much – which was inter state
governance would mean (as
opposed to ushering in a new era of global
democracy). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As it happens I’ve spent
thirty years
trying to promote democracy and human rights so your
gratuitous insults wash
off me but I’m curious as to why you feel the need to insult
anyone who
disagrees with you? It is not an
effective means of persuasion in my experience so I suggest
we terminate this
exchange from now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
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0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> michael gurstein
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thursday, 6
March 2014 04:02<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> andrew Puddephatt
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>
"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists. net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE:
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Ah… the “if I ruled the world” challenge… yes,
flattering but ultimately inconsequential… I don’t
(thank god) rule the world… So my off the cuff
solutions aren’t worth all that much…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">I did a major project in sub-Saharan Africa
last year with Mwaki among others addressing more or
less this very question… and the answer was… it’s
complicated…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">It involved strengthening broad structures of
governance, putting technology infrastructures into
(the right) place(s), training, developing appropriate
mechanisms for consultation/decision making… And yes
the answer was multi-stakeholder … but… not
multistakeholderist… multi-stakeholder within a
context which could accommodate and contain and make
multi-stakeholder consultation and participation
meaningful and useful for all concerned including to
strengthen democratic governance and particularly
figuring out how to get governmental structures to
adapt and respond. To some degree this would be done
in parallel to existing democratic processes but
interwoven with them to use the democracy to reinforce
the consultations and the consultations to deepen and
reinforce the democracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Sorry if this is tedious and not glib enough
for you but given world enough and time my guess is
that this kind of thing could work as well in
Ouagadougou as in downtown Tehran… not sure about
Hackney/Georgetown but it seems to work well enough in
Teeside and if we can get these things to work in Ouga
and Tehran and Teeside – well “first we take Manhattan
and then we take Berlin.. *<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">(And BTW it’s not me who is agitating to
jettison 300 or so years of democracy in favour of
some pig in a poke hatched in some US think tank and
being foisted on the world by a self-interested cabal
of the US State Department, Google, various other
OECD private corps, and certain selected “civil
society” organizations including your own it would
appear**<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">*Leonard Cohen.. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85">http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">**</span><span style="font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">TOWARD A SINGLE GLOBAL DIGITAL ECONOMY <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf">http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;"> Andrew Puddephatt [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">I’m
sorry Mike ��� you are not answering the question.
If you mean by multi-lateralism, negotiations about
a global environment conducted by states I want to
know - not why you think multi-stakeholderism is
crap - which you have discussed with all of us at
great and increasingly tedious length - but what js
your democratic alternative that allows my interests
– or any other citizens to be represented in global
negotiations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Those
you disagree with are looking for ways to ensure a
broader range of voices – including states of course
as the most powerful actors- in the governance
debate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Put
your option up for discussion and let’s see how
democratic that is to the resident of downtown
Tehran (or even Hackney where I live)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 02:57<br>
<b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Andrew (and Suresh…</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Those are quite legitimate
points/questions and very much worthy of serious
discussion and debate.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">However, evoking (over and over and
over…) the undefined, undescribed, undetailed
multistakeholderist mantra doesn’t get us any
closer…
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">The continuous shapeshifting by the
proponents of the MS meme whenever they are
challenged to get real --well this isn’t quite
“MSism”, it isn’t true MSism, it will be better
next time MSism, doesn’t do anyone a service
(except the “wizards” behind the curtains).
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">From my own experience, whenever MSism
“gets real” it falls apart—either it doesn’t have
any operational processes or related significant
structures of accountability so it can’t handle
even the most insignificant of challenges without
some form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught
or it simply ignores the issue and moves on. Nor
can it handle even the most inconsequential of
divergences/diversities of opinion—the drive
towards convergence/consensus (and the associated
processes of marginalization and exclusion) are
terrifying to me if there were any real chance of
scaling. In the last century we had a lot of
experience (and several names) for political
systems that couldn’t deal with challenge,
divergence, conflict and insisted on a managed
consensus and forced choices “or else…
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Democracy and multi-lateralism both
have many many flaws but they have both taken us a
considerable distance down roads that allow us to
be where we are now and thinking about significant
and desirable ways forward into much more complex
decision environments. Moreover we now have (the
possibility of using) new tools to support the
extending of democratic capabilities, the broader
inclusion of diversities, the extension of
opportunities for effective participation to
previously marginalized populations.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I see absolutely no reason for civil
society to be uncritically supporting MSism as is
obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes
against everything that CS has traditionally stood
for—the broadening and deepening of accountability
in support of the public good, the strengthening
of democracy including through its extension to
the poor and marginalized, the developing of
public processes and methods to control the
unaccountable use of private power in opposition
to the public interest.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">MSism is in its essence a form of
privatization of power—shifting of power from the
hands of people (however flawed that might be) to
the hands of those who for the most part are
unaccountable and non-transparent in their
actions, their internal operations and in their
structures.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I would love to see some demonstration
that I am wrong or that I’ve missed something but
another round of “trust them/us” is not going to
cut it.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Mike</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;
color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif; color: black;"> Andrew Puddephatt
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Michael</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Those
of us less clever than you are trying to figure
out how to make governance of a global system
more equitable and transparent and accountable.
Clearly we failed.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Can
you explain to me how an international inter
state process is democratic, assuming that is
what you believe (and if not what is your
democratic alternative to the submissions on
BB?). How are my interests represented by inter
state discussions, or those of Chinese or
Russian citizens, or women in Saudi Arabia or
Canadian academics? </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I see, so in your world
democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced
by Multistakeholderism where there is no
(evident) transparency (T) or accountability
(A) for the inputs into the stakeholder
processes, no (evident) T or A for the outputs
of the stakeholder processes and the
stakeholders themselves are subject to no
effective T or A since they are some sort of
(interglalactic?) shapeshifters errr… those
with “role flexibilities”.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Have I missed something
here?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">This may work for a Wizard
of Oz space like 1Net where even as the
curtain gets repeatedly bunched up revealing
the (“non-existent”—we have it on the highest
possible authority—trust us) wizard pulling
the strings and T & A appears to consist
of repeated choruses of “trust them it will
get better” by a fawning self-selected
“Steering Committee”, but surely in our world
we might expect something with a slightly
higher reality component.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014
4:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
parminder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <,<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On
5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">So, request a clear
response - do you mean
<b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision
making</i></b> about <b><i>public
policies
</i></b>between gov and non gov
actors.... And this is not a petty
point... Half of the time of the WGEC
got taken on this kind of discussion.
This is the single most important point
today, if we can clarify nd possibly
agree on this point - rest is not too
difficult... Lets accept what is the key
point, and not skirt it...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Different
people who contributed to the submission,
even if they all endorse the final result,
will probably give you different answers
to that question. I'm not sure that
anyone is interested in what my personal
answer is because I'm just an individual,
but I would say no I do not accept as a
general proposition that parity in
decision making is appropriate, which is
why I personally objected to that language
being used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For
some issues, it will be appropriate that
the stakeholders act as equals in the
decision making process (to the extent
that there is a "decision" at all). In
other areas, it won't be appropriate and
may be more appropriate that although all
stakeholders are involved, one of them
will legitimately take a bigger role than
the others. For example governments may
take a leading role in transnational human
rights disputes, the technical community
may do so in developing spam filtering
standards, civil society may do so in
developing human rights based principles
for judging government surveillance
practices, and even the private sector may
do so, say in setting prices for the
trading of IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This
also implies that the appropriate
mechanism of governance may differ in each
case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The
above all follows naturally if you accept
that there are no fixed stakeholder roles,
because the appropriate roles will differ
depending on the circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">BTW,
the German government has the following to
say in its submission to NetMundial<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
Do you for instance agree to the above
formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Nope,
don't agree with the German government's
formulation because it maintains the fallacy
of fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif; color: black;">--</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif; color: black;">Jeremy
Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif; color: black;">Internet
lawyer, ICT policy advocate,
geek</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
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-t NAPTR
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href="http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk
-F! '{print $3}'</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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