<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 March 2014 12:06 PM,
Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div>Assuming we’re genuinely trying to understand each other’s
positions, my views on the short comings of the current system
and proposals to move the debate forward are expressed in the
submission to Netmundial</div>
<div>At <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bestbits.net/netmundial-roadmap/">http://bestbits.net/netmundial-roadmap/</a>
which was available for comment for a month or more on the BB
list – (without anyone providing substantial comments except for
Marilia). It sets out my take on the issue.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that achieving a democratic approach to internet
governance is enormously challenging and this is the best option
of those practically available. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I will comment on this approach you take in the above proposed
submission in my next email, first on the principle level issue of
who makes public policy decisions... <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where I think we disagree is that I think you believe
governments should in the end, make the final decisions about
the internet as they are the sole source of legitimacy (please
correct me if I misunderstand you). <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You do understand correctly. I believe that for global public
policies the final public policy decision has to be taken by
governments. This is so for policies in all area, whether climate
change, health, trade, IP, or any other. That is an imperfect
system, but that is the best we got... We should continually improve
it, as various submissions from my organisation has sought, and
well, IGF is a great reform measure, to help, but not do, policy
making. <br>
<br>
However, your poser clearly shows that you believe that this should
not be the case... In that case please let me know <i><b>who should
take the public policy decisions, and how</b></i>? To be clear
on this is important because there are an enormous number of public
policy issues to be sorted out and default/ status quo simply
benefits that economically and politically most powerful. This is a
direct question.<br>
<br>
To note, your proposed roadmap proposes no model for public policy
decision making, only for agenda developing and vetting.....
Apparently, decisions are still to be made in an inter- governmental
manner by existing global policy bodies. Right? Please do let me
know if I am wrong...Again a direct question.<br>
<br>
So, unlike, what you claim about Michael's position, it is you who
do not have a model for making global Internet related public policy
decisions, rather than he. However, if I am wrong and you do have a
model, lets see it, and we can comment on it. <br>
<br>
I hope it is not your case that there are not significant global
Internet related public policy issues to be sorted out. But if that
is the case, lets discuss that particular issue. It is good to be
specific. (BTW, do see numerous developing country, including
Brazil's, submission to WGEC on such outstanding Internet-related
public policy issues)<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div> I think this would be catastrophic for the internet's
ability to promote free speech and open communication. I look
at the Human Rights Council – occasionally chaired by some of
the most hostile governments to human rights and see that it
has often been catastrophic to human rights . <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
When I look at my parliament, I consider it catastrophic in many
manners, but still it does not take away my belief in parliamentary
democracy. Just need to improve things by and by. BTW, human rights
council did adopt the privacy resolution recently, which is quite
good and also rather specific.... This is much more than IGF has
achieved in 10 years -- just to take one instance, when the whole
world is reeling under net neutrality erosions, this issue has
successfully been prevented to be discussed as a main session policy
issue at the IGF. Who prevented it. Make a guess. I can write a
full story how it has been done (BTW try reading transcripts of feb
2012 MAG meeting in Paris).<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nor do I see your distinction between government and
business </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well, that is a problem.. and represents a fundamental disbelief in
politics and democracy, which I cannot do much about.. But still,
coming from you I am a bit shocked to hear this....<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div>– don’t you think that the CCP central committee are also the
wealthiest businessmen in China? – that in most repressive
societies (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Russia) business and
government are utterly intertwined – do you want such
governments/business interests to dominate internet policy? </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Andrew, your statement of the problem is - the existing so called
democratic governance systems are dominated by business interests. I
agree, and we must do something about it. A lot of democracy
movements worldwide, in which I participate, are doing something
about it. What I cannot understand or agree with is your
solution.... How does giving formal political power to those same
big businesses - through multistakeholder decision making - solves
or even begins to address that problem... Does it not simply
exacerbates it -- with not even a possible eventual solution,
because we would have normatively and structurally admitted
dominance of big business.... Sorry, but I simply do not get this. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div> You must know from your time at WGEC that this what they
want?.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
In my time at WGEC, I see big business reps, and compliant civil
society, simply shout down any possibility of global addressing of
key and pressing Internet related public policy issues -- which
simply helps big monopolies and oligopolies keep stuffing their
safes more and more at the expense of public interest. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div> Who represents my interests as a user in such a world? How
is anyone represented?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, those are key questions.... And my answer is - giving big
business formal political power is going in exactly the opposite
directions from improving people's representativity in policy
processes. We should try to reduce the power of big business, bot
sanctify and formalise it...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CF3DC13A.157A4%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And to be clear - I say this with respect for your position
as I think you have valid concerns and we probably share the
same goals – while clearly disagreeing on the means</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thursday, 6
March 2014 05:56<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> andrew Puddephatt
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>
"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists. net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> p<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 March 2014 11:16
AM, Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">"not really
sure what you are seeing as an insult</span><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;">”</span></font></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><span style="color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;">T</span></font><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;">ry assuming that people you
disagree with have the same desire for democracy and
accountability as you but have a
different understanding of how to reach it <br>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have tried my best, in last many months/ years, but have
been unable to understand how getting big business reps to
have "equal footing" parity with government reps (however
imperfectly elected govs they may come from) in terms of <i><b>making
actual decisions on public policy issues</b></i> is
compatible with democracy. That is what I call anti- or
post-democracy.<br>
<br>
And that is the precise issue/ question I posted yesterday
with respect to the principles submission proposed by some
civil society groups including yours, but got no response.<br>
<br>
However, if you think it is compatible with democracy do
please explain. We will withdraw the the anti-democratic
label..<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;">J</span></font><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;">ust try that mental
exercise, re read your e-mails to the list</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Else,
this kind of stuff is simply rhetoric - asking for
mental exercises and all. </font></font><br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CF3DBB33.15795%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium
none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in;
PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
#b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none;
PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From:
</span> michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>
Thursday, 6 March 2014 05:03<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> andrew
Puddephatt <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists.
net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE:
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial
submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14
(filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Insults by the by (not
really sure what you are seeing as an insult..
but anyway…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’ve taken the trouble here
and elsewhere to lay out some, what I think
are serious issues concerning MSism…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m still waiting for you
or anyone to make some significant counters to
those arguments or even address them in some
serious way (something with a bit more
substance than red herrings about Chinese
billionaires and Mr. Cameron…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The US submission to the
NETMundial refers to “MSism” <b><u>9 times</u></b>
in less than a page (it doesn’t mention
democracy even once).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">You are evidently a strong
supporter of MSism. Perhaps you could give me
a response to my comments/criticisms or
suggest how my arguments are incorrect or my
experiences are inconclusive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Andrew Puddephatt [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014
8:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Actually,
far from being tedious, there are
interesting and multi stakeholder ideas in
your proposition which in a different place
and in a different mood would be good to
explore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Unfortunately
your ideas don’t seem to be on the table in
the WGEC or WSIS reviews and I doubt that
the nine billionaires who run the Chinese
Communist party, the Supreme Leader of Iran,
Mr Putin or Mr Cameron my own prime minister
would be too interested. So I’d rather not
see them in control of the internet thank
you very much – which was inter state
governance would mean (as opposed to
ushering in a new era of global democracy).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">As
it happens I’ve spent thirty years trying to
promote democracy and human rights so your
gratuitous insults wash off me but I’m
curious as to why you feel the need to
insult anyone who disagrees with you? It
is not an effective means of persuasion in
my experience so I suggest we terminate this
exchange from now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 04:02<br>
<b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ah… the “if I
ruled the world” challenge… yes,
flattering but ultimately inconsequential…
I don’t (thank god) rule the world… So my
off the cuff solutions aren’t worth all
that much…</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I did a major
project in sub-Saharan Africa last year
with Mwaki among others addressing more or
less this very question… and the answer
was… it’s complicated…</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It involved
strengthening broad structures of
governance, putting technology
infrastructures into (the right) place(s),
training, developing appropriate
mechanisms for consultation/decision
making… And yes the answer was
multi-stakeholder … but… not
multistakeholderist… multi-stakeholder
within a context which could accommodate
and contain and make multi-stakeholder
consultation and participation meaningful
and useful for all concerned including to
strengthen democratic governance and
particularly figuring out how to get
governmental structures to adapt and
respond. To some degree this would be done
in parallel to existing democratic
processes but interwoven with them to use
the democracy to reinforce the
consultations and the consultations to
deepen and reinforce the democracy.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sorry if this is
tedious and not glib enough for you but
given world enough and time my guess is
that this kind of thing could work as well
in Ouagadougou as in downtown Tehran… not
sure about Hackney/Georgetown but it seems
to work well enough in Teeside and if we
can get these things to work in Ouga and
Tehran and Teeside – well “first we take
Manhattan and then we take Berlin.. *</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(And BTW it’s
not me who is agitating to jettison 300 or
so years of democracy in favour of some
pig in a poke hatched in some US think
tank and being foisted on the world by a
self-interested cabal of the US State
Department, Google, various other OECD
private corps, and certain selected “civil
society” organizations including your own
it would appear**</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">*Leonard Cohen..
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85">http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">**</span><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">TOWARD A SINGLE GLOBAL
DIGITAL ECONOMY <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf">http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf</a></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">
Andrew Puddephatt [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014
7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial
submissions launched for endorsement
at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;">I’m sorry
Mike </span><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;
color: black;">���</span><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"> you
are not answering the question. If you
mean by multi-lateralism, negotiations
about a global environment conducted by
states I want to know - not why you
think multi-stakeholderism is crap -
which you have discussed with all of us
at great and increasingly tedious length
- but what js your democratic
alternative that allows my interests –
or any other citizens to be represented
in global negotiations?</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;">Those you
disagree with are looking for ways to
ensure a broader range of voices –
including states of course as the most
powerful actors- in the governance
debate.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;">Put your
option up for discussion and let’s see
how democratic that is to the resident
of downtown Tehran (or even Hackney
where I live)</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
black;">michael gurstein <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014
02:57<br>
<b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re:
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Andrew (and Suresh…</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Those are quite legitimate
points/questions and very much worthy
of serious discussion and debate. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">However, evoking (over and
over and over…) the undefined,
undescribed, undetailed
multistakeholderist mantra doesn’t get
us any closer… </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">The continuous
shapeshifting by the proponents of the
MS meme whenever they are challenged
to get real --well this isn’t quite
“MSism”, it isn’t true MSism, it will
be better next time MSism, doesn’t do
anyone a service (except the “wizards”
behind the curtains). </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">From my own experience,
whenever MSism “gets real” it falls
apart—either it doesn’t have any
operational processes or related
significant structures of
accountability so it can’t handle even
the most insignificant of challenges
without some form of full on
offensive/defensive onslaught or it
simply ignores the issue and moves on.
Nor can it handle even the most
inconsequential of
divergences/diversities of opinion—the
drive towards convergence/consensus
(and the associated processes of
marginalization and exclusion) are
terrifying to me if there were any
real chance of scaling. In the last
century we had a lot of experience
(and several names) for political
systems that couldn’t deal with
challenge, divergence, conflict and
insisted on a managed consensus and
forced choices “or else… </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Democracy and
multi-lateralism both have many many
flaws but they have both taken us a
considerable distance down roads that
allow us to be where we are now and
thinking about significant and
desirable ways forward into much more
complex decision environments.
Moreover we now have (the possibility
of using) new tools to support the
extending of democratic capabilities,
the broader inclusion of diversities,
the extension of opportunities for
effective participation to previously
marginalized populations.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I see absolutely no reason
for civil society to be uncritically
supporting MSism as is obviously
currently the case. To my mind this
goes against everything that CS has
traditionally stood for—the broadening
and deepening of accountability in
support of the public good, the
strengthening of democracy including
through its extension to the poor and
marginalized, the developing of public
processes and methods to control the
unaccountable use of private power in
opposition to the public interest. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">MSism is in its essence a
form of privatization of
power—shifting of power from the hands
of people (however flawed that might
be) to the hands of those who for the
most part are unaccountable and
non-transparent in their actions,
their internal operations and in their
structures.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I would love to see some
demonstration that I am wrong or that
I’ve missed something but another
round of “trust them/us” is not going
to cut it.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Mike</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;
color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;
color: black;"> Andrew Puddephatt
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05,
2014 6:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial
submissions launched for
endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">Michael</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">Those of us less
clever than you are trying to figure
out how to make governance of a
global system more equitable and
transparent and accountable.
Clearly we failed.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">Can you explain to me
how an international inter state
process is democratic, assuming that
is what you believe (and if not what
is your democratic alternative to
the submissions on BB?). How are my
interests represented by inter state
discussions, or those of Chinese or
Russian citizens, or women in Saudi
Arabia or Canadian academics? </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">michael
gurstein <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>michael gurstein
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March
2014 23:57<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance]
Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial
submissions launched for endorsement
at bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I see,
so in your world democracy
(however flawed), is to be
replaced by Multistakeholderism
where there is no (evident)
transparency (T) or accountability
(A) for the inputs into the
stakeholder processes, no
(evident) T or A for the outputs
of the stakeholder processes and
the stakeholders themselves are
subject to no effective T or A
since they are some sort of
(interglalactic?) shapeshifters
errr… those with “role
flexibilities”.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Have I
missed something here?</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This may
work for a Wizard of Oz space like
1Net where even as the curtain
gets repeatedly bunched up
revealing the (“non-existent”—we
have it on the highest possible
authority—trust us) wizard pulling
the strings and T & A appears
to consist of repeated choruses of
“trust them it will get better” by
a fawning self-selected “Steering
Committee”, but surely in our
world we might expect something
with a slightly higher reality
component.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif; color: black;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy
Malcolm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March
05, 2014 4:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
parminder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <,<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[governance] Re: [bestbits]
Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at
bestbits.net</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">On 5 Mar 2014,
at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:black"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">So,
request a clear response -
do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b>
in <b><i>decision making</i></b>
about <b><i>public policies
</i></b>between gov and
non gov actors.... And this
is not a petty point... Half
of the time of the WGEC got
taken on this kind of
discussion. This is the
single most important point
today, if we can clarify nd
possibly agree on this point
- rest is not too
difficult... Lets accept
what is the key point, and
not skirt it...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">Different
people who contributed to the
submission, even if they all
endorse the final result, will
probably give you different
answers to that question. I'm
not sure that anyone is
interested in what my personal
answer is because I'm just an
individual, but I would say no
I do not accept as a general
proposition that parity in
decision making is
appropriate, which is why I
personally objected to that
language being used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">For some
issues, it will be appropriate
that the stakeholders act as
equals in the decision making
process (to the extent that
there is a "decision" at all).
In other areas, it won't be
appropriate and may be more
appropriate that although all
stakeholders are involved, one
of them will legitimately take
a bigger role than the others.
For example governments may
take a leading role in
transnational human rights
disputes, the technical
community may do so in
developing spam filtering
standards, civil society may
do so in developing human
rights based principles for
judging government
surveillance practices, and
even the private sector may do
so, say in setting prices for
the trading of IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">This also
implies that the appropriate
mechanism of governance may
differ in each case, eg. laws,
standards, markets. The above
all follows naturally if you
accept that there are no fixed
stakeholder roles, because the
appropriate roles will differ
depending on the
circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:black"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">BTW, the
German government has the
following to say in its
submission to NetMundial<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
Do you for instance agree to
the above formulation, or
NOT...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">Nope, don't
agree with the German
government's formulation because
it maintains the fallacy of
fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9pt;
font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;
color: black;">--</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9pt;
font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;
color: black;">Jeremy
Malcolm PhD LLB
(Hons) B Com</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9pt;
font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;
color: black;">Internet
lawyer, ICT
policy advocate,
geek</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9pt;
font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;
color: black;">host
-t NAPTR
5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk -F!
'{print $3}'</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:
black;"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:
black;">WARNING:
This email has not
been encrypted. You
are strongly
recommended to
enable encryption at
your end. For
instructions, see <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span> </blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>