<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi P<div><br></div><div>I knew our moment of agreement would be fleeting :-) Just to reply and then from there whatever whomever decides is fine by me.</div><div>
<br><div><div>On Dec 28, 2013, at 10:58 AM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 28 December 2013 02:58 PM,
William Drake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
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Hi
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks Parminder, glad we are able to agree on this.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But further to the question of being clear about who’s
speaking, I guess I also don’t understand why you’re only
asking for the views of the leaderships of these networks? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Because they alone can either respond on the basis of already
established views of the respective groups or initiate a process for
establishing such views. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>In Bali the initial presentation of 1net was problematic, you and few others were forcefully negative in response, and so the 30-odd people in the room rolled with it rather than arguing, which seemed advisable coming on the heels of the reportedly riotously confrontational IGC meeting that a bunch of people walked out of (which I alas had to miss). But there were certainly people there who didn’t agree then and probably don’t now, especially since the situation has become clearer over time. If again nobody wants to engage on the point fine, they missed last call at the bar, but it doesn’t seem right to simply assume that what a subset of folks thought two months ago commits everyone else now.</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div> Undoubtedly there are varying views among their
memberships about whether CS should present its nominations
to the conference committees in the same way as other
stakeholders, as the LOG has asked us to do for simplicity’s
sake. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I dont see the alleged 'simplicity'. Simplicity consists in any
nominating process writing directly to the email id of the local
organising group which has been publicised. I see a clear layer of
complexity being added by introducing 1Net into this process. And I
read a huge political factor behind it.<br>
<br>
BTW, if it were just for 'simplicity's' sake it would also mean
there was not much 'substantive' difference between one process and
the other... In which case what do you have against CS directly
corresponding with Brazilian organisers? <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I don’t care what the networks involved decide as long as it is not characterized in a totalizing manner as the stance of CS generally. I’ve had people from other corners of the universe ask “why is CS refusing to participate in 1net” and have had to explain it is not, there are different groupings, blah blah blah…So I’m just asking for clarity on who’s speaking when statements are made. As to the LOG, I read their messages to date as to boiling down to a simplicity rationale, but if that’s the wrong word Carlos or Hartmut or whomever can explain what would be the right one.</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>Surely you’re not suggesting that the leaders should just
take whatever stances they want because their memberships have
varying views (well, Best Bits doesn’t actually have members
to represent, but whatever). <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
We agree. I have been telling BB guys this for a long time.. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Twice in one day we agree? Break out the champagne!<br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>While I’m not trying to initiate another long and
needlessly divisive thread about representational modalities,
I don’t think continuing down this road will be helpful to
anyone. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FWIW my view remains that if the networks involved refuse
to work through the 1net mechanism to channel nominations to
the Brazilians, they should not have taken positions on the
1net coordination committee, which to date has one
identifiable function— channeling nominations to the
Brazilians. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You know, Bill. 1Net like one mystery novel of which no one is able
to make out the plot... You say it has just one identifiable
function that of channelling nominations. John Curran of the I*
group, <br>
who was present at Montevedio when 1Net idea was born - recently
said on the 1Net list that he doesnt know of any such function and
1Net is a discussion space (unless and until be becomes something
else).... To be precise, let me quote John<br>
<br>
"At this point, until there is a seated 1net coordinating committee,
I know of no mechanism for "1net" to even respond to the meeting
organizers about its role (whatever that may be)</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div>…."</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>John is obviously correct that until 1net has a seated CC, there’s no way for the CC to provide the LOG with names….?<br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
It is my opinion that majority of people here do not think what you
say is 1Net's 'one identifiable function’.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>To my knowledge the only identifiable function the 1net CC has been asked to perform to date is to provide the LOG with names. Unlike you I am unable intuit the thinking of hundreds of people from the few bits of conversation about the CC’s function, so if people believe others have been agreed it’d be good to hear what these are.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div> If the view is that because its launch and initial
expiation were not handled well 1net therefore has no
legitimacy as a channel, </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Whether 1Net should be or not the channel for CS role in Brazil
meeting was extensively discussed among 'many' CS members in Bali,
and also on IGC and BB lists... In fact I dont remember any
opposition at all to the view that was adopted - that no, CS would
like to engage directly with Brazilian on the Brazil meeting, and 4
mentioned CS groups - IGC, BB, IRP and APC signed on it. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>And if that’s still their position in light of events since Bali, great. But it’d be better to confirm than assume, no?<br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>then the networks shouldn’t lend it legitimacy and should
resign from its coordination committee. I don’t share that
view of 1net, but if someone else does they should behave
according to their principles rather than trying to have it
both ways. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think those who are nominated/ slated to sit on the 1Net
coordination committee from the CS side should answer this. They
must certainly have some idea about what the purpose and function of
1Net is. I really hope they have some such idea.. And most of them
were closely associated with developing the civil society position
that I have been referring to. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Sounds good. </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Bill<br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:B0446441-1279-4FC5-AF82-86B5C1E813CA@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bill</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 27, 2013, at 3:41 PM, parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
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Ok, Bill, There was a category confusion here.
Since we were/ are interacting within the IGC and BB
space I meant simply 'our CS groups' here had made
that decision. I agree that it is factually
incorrect to say that it is a civil society
decision. Should only say it is IGC plus BB plus APC
plus IRP decision. I stand corrected.<br>
<br>
(Since I was writing to Carlos I was also mindful
that Carlos knew </font><font face="Verdana">exactly
</font><font face="Verdana">which groups put forward
this position and will communicate accordingly...)<br>
<br>
In any case, I request the leaderships of IGC, BB,
APC and IRP colaition to let us know what there
current position is on this issue, and what do they
propose to do since it seems that things are going
in the direction that they did not want them to go..<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 27 December
2013 04:35 PM, William Drake wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:3CE0D58A-801F-4AEC-99B5-7AE33B3B3223@gmail.com" type="cite">
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charset=UTF-8">
<br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:34 AM, parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 27
December 2013 02:53 PM, William Drake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:855190B1-7012-4530-9147-D9D9418BB942@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Small corrections please</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 27, 2013, at 9:48 AM,
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<font face="Verdana">Dear Carlos<br>
<br>
I understand that the local
organising group will meet in a
few hours from now...<br>
<br>
I will request you to let them
know that civil society groups </font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Should read “some civil society groups”.
Probably necessary to give their names
so the message is understood properly.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I understand that it is a decision of 4 CS
organisations/ networks - IGC, BB, IRP and APC
- which was sent in a written form to the
Brazilians and I am only reiterating that
decision... I understand that decision stand
unless a counter decision is taken..<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Well…As Nnenna and other have documented, IGC and
BB are in fact the same people, and as BB is a
voting platform with formal members it’s not clear
how legitimately this position was adopted without
a vote. IRP I thought was a multistakeholder
coalition, is it not? I don’t recall what APC’s
position was, would be good to have
reconfirmation. Either way, not endorsing that
approach is NCSG (almost 400 organization and
individual members), Diplo (quite a lot), or
various other CS networks and organizations
engaged in IG. So you really are not in a
position to issue grandiose totalizing
proclamations on behalf of all global civil
society. And FWIW, as both a founding IGC member
and a BB attendee, I certainly I don’t recall an
open and inclusive discussion in either setting
about whether to stand aloof of the process the
Brazilians are asking us to use (which I can’t
believe we’re still debating). What I do remember
is a few loud and aggressive voices demanding that
this be the stance and nobody wanting to tangle.
I also remember the very same people who
denounced using 1net as the agreed aggregator of
nominations and anything else then demanding to be
appointed to its coordination committee, which is
a pretty blatant bit of have your cake and eat it
too incoherence.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyway, it’s of course totally fine if there
are groups that feel that on principle you will
not interface with the Brazilian process in the
manner the Brazilians have asked for. Then simply
say who you are, and don’t pretend to speak for
other parts of CS that don’t agree with you. </div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
However, if you and or others want that
decision to be reversed, please indicate so,
and we can gather opinions. </div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I’m not asking you to change your view, I know you
won’t. I’m asking you to please report accurately
who supports your statement so that others of us
don’t have to waste time issuing a public
corrective. Such a process is not going to add
luster to CS participation. </div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Otherwise
please do not confuse people about what is an
existing decision of key civil society groups…</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I’m not confusing people, you are. You are
claiming, yet again, to be speaking for “civil
society,” when you are not. It is a pretty major
misrepresentation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BD<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:855190B1-7012-4530-9147-D9D9418BB942@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font face="Verdana">stand by their
decision to communicate their
nominees for various organising
committees directly to the local
organising group (LOG) ... All
other kinds of communication from
the civil society </font><span style="font-family: Verdana;">side</span><span style="font-family: Verdana;"> </span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
from these members of the civil society
‘side’</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font face="Verdana">will also continue
to be done from civil society side
directly to the LOG, and later, as
appropriate to the relevant
organising committees. We </font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
These civil society groups</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These amendments add some precision
and avoid some of the unnecessary
confusion that’s arisen.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bill</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font face="Verdana">do not intend to
mediate any such communication
through 1Net or any such other
group. <br>
<br>
I will add as a personal opinion
that: Brazil/ CGI.Br has taken the
political role of organising this
important meeting; it cannot now
shirk from the corresponding
political responsibilities, by
passing them on to others who have
not been given the needed
legitimacy. The world sees and
approves Brazil as the host and
organiser of this meeting, and it
will be best if they are able to
continue to do so. Any change of
perception would have important
bearing on the legitimacy and
success of the meeting. <br>
<br>
I would also like to request LOG
to give civil society Liaisons -
the names being already
communicated to them - equal
status and involvement in your
meetings and decisions as,
apparently, is being given to some
other non governmental groups. <br>
<br>
In this regard I also request the
Liaisons to be in contact with the
LOG, and also with us. <br>
<br>
Thanks and best regards<br>
<br>
Parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font><br>
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*******************************************************************<br>
William J. Drake<br>
International Fellow
& Lecturer<br>
Media Change
& Innovation Division,
IPMZ<br>
University of
Zurich, Switzerland<br>
Chair, Noncommercial Users
Constituency, <br>
ICANN, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ncuc.org/">www.ncuc.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch">william.drake@uzh.ch</a> (direct), <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com">wjdrake@gmail.com</a>
(lists),<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.williamdrake.org/">www.williamdrake.org</a><br>
********************************************************************</div>
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*******************************************************************<br>
William J. Drake<br>
International Fellow & Lecturer<br>
Media Change & Innovation
Division, IPMZ<br>
University of Zurich, Switzerland<br>
Chair, Noncommercial Users
Constituency, <br>
ICANN, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ncuc.org/">www.ncuc.org</a><br>
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