<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 25 Dec 2013, at 11:05 am, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I must admit that I find the criteria being bandied about here re: selection for CS representation to be quite bizarre… (sorry I’m not exactly sure where this particular list came from but it has been bandied about by the various CS honchos in one form or another over the last few days…<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 62.25pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -26.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>1.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Able to represent civil society as a whole, not just your individual civil society organisation(s)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Hmmm… as I read this what it means is that whoever represents CS doesn’t (can’t) have an opinion… what sort of an opinion would/could represent “Civil Society as a whole”.. So the process of selection is done to ensure the least common denominator/effective representative of any CS values or interests… I wonder whether the 5 representatives of the corporate sector are going to follow this form of self-regulation so as to ensure that they don’t represent any corporate interests.. beyond the lowest common denominator of supporting the market economy… I think not…</span></i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, we are talking largely administrative, not policy, positions - and I think it is fairly obvious that there are some shared concerns within civil society, such as ensuring adequate representation for CS. <br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 62.25pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -26.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>2.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Able to work collegiately with other stakeholder groups in a multistakeholder setting<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Ah, yes the “play nice”/kindergarten criteria, qv. my response to Avri</span></i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, some of us prefer to think of it as work productively rather than 'play nice'. I appreciate that there are some of us who do not think working productively with other stakeholder groups is a priority, but I can't see why they would want to apply for a position coordinating with other stakeholder groups. Or why we would want to select them for that role. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Perhaps you can suggest to us why we might want specifically to select representatives who are not able to work with other stakeholder groups?</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 62.25pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -26.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>3.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Able to consult widely with civil society groups and to report back as the process progresses<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 62.25pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Okay, but we’ve already eliminated most anyone with any serious involvements with active CS groups so the process of consulting and reporting back seems a wee bit,vacuous dare I say… we are expecting them to consult and report back but on…. what exactly</span></i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I would imagine some of those selected might take your characterisation of them as not having serious involvement with active CS groups as somewhat pejorative. Is there anyone in particular you think this applies to?</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Since we are tossing around criteria how about a few more that might actually have a substantive impact on the effectiveness of CS in representing CS interests…<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>1.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">No participation in CS representation by individuals who have been part of government delegations for the last five years</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Individuals who participate in both CS and government is disproportionately likely to come from smaller nations, where there are a smaller number of people with Internet policy and governance skills, so those with experience are more often called on to fill government delegations etc. So this would have a practical effect of excluding those from smaller nations disproportionately, which seems a very bad idea to me. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Not that it is restricted to smaller nations, of course. As Adam points out, larger nations often bring large delegations to the ITU etc, and civil society people are often included. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I can see the principle here - but it doesn't seem likely to actually help our effectiveness. <br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>2.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">No participation in CS except by those who actually have some experience in the areas in which they are pontificating/err pronouncing.. I.e. if they are talking about “development” we should expect that “our” representatives have actually gotten their boots dirty in actual development and not just high level maundering around the issues…</span></p></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Are we then expected to only appoint representatives for broader policy forums to have experience of all policy areas they might possibly be involved in discussing? And this is expected to be a better alternative to simply asking them to consult with colleagues?</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span>3.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">No participation from those who only represent themselves (NGO’s or whatever of 1) and have no evident links to larger CS (or other) networks beyond the immediate cadre of their IG CS friends and allies.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Which, of course, cuts out many of the most experienced advocates in our networks, if they don't happen to have an appropriate gig at the time. Again, I can see the reasoning, but I don't see how it would enhance our effectiveness. <br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.75in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">The criteria that you folks have been prattling on about, point to the fundamental flaw in IG CS which is that the way you are approaching it, the only thing apart from lunch which can be agreed upon and thus meet your criteria are process issues. No substance, no content, no real policy… just process…</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>We are mostly selecting criteria for process based positions, so yes. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">So CS becomes completely pre-occupied with discussing (its own) positioning and processes in the larger IG area. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>You've been a fairly enthusiastic participant in discussions about how civil society representatives should be selected yourself. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David</div></body></html>