<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">There are three/four major players here
depending on how one sees it:<br>
<br>
U.S Government spying<br>
and then other Governments<br>
Network Operators<br>
Commercial data miners<br>
<br>
who are all different in their operations. The problems are
different w.r.t to all of these and need to be addressed
simultaneously.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/10/2013 11:24 AM, Gene Kimmelman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:C75FD1FA-145B-44C6-9BAE-60C0F3742CFB@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Mike, I appreciate your intellectual clarity and segmentation of
priorities. However, as a political matter (particularly for non
- US citizens), the companies are practically aiding and abetting
the governments until THE COMPANIES reform their practices; I
therefore think we need to address both problems, even if one is
much more significant as a matter of principle.<br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:19 AM, "Mike Godwin (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gene and Mishi, I think it means this for some value
of “insists,” but this takes us back to the old debate
about “opt-in” versus “opt-out.” This does, in fact,
remain a really good debate to have — whether, say,
Google should require us to sign in for search, or what
the default settings of internet services should be. And
so on. But, to me, those remain nuanced discussions.
Governments engaging in bulk collection of data is <span
style="font-weight: bold;">not</span> a nuanced issue,
in my view — it centers squarely on whether governments
should be in the habit of engaging in such activities,
especially without transparency and accountability.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My priorities are, in this order, (1) get governments
out of the unaccountable bulk-collection business, if we
can, and (2) have a thorough discussion of what we will
allow commercial entities to do with regard to
collection of private data. Without saying everyone
should share my ordered priorities, I hope it’s clear
why I think (1) is the more immediate and urgent
problem.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, I think achievability of public policy relies
on disentangling the issues rather than on assuming
they’re hopelessly entangled. As I noted earlier, I
think we could reduce commercial data-gathering a
thousandfold and still not address the fundamental
problem of what governments want to do. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>—Mike</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>-- </div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);">Mike
Godwin</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> | Senior Legal Advisor, Global
Internet Policy Project</span><span
style="font-size: 16.5pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@internews.org"
target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span
style="font-size: 12px; ">mgodwin@internews.org</span></a><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 9pt;"> | <b>Mobile</b> 415-793-4446</span><span
style="font-size: 16.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;
font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
">Skype</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> mnemonic1026</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;
font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
">Address</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> 1601 R Street NW, 2nd
Floor Washington, DC 20009 USA</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;
font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;
font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><b><span
style="color: rgb(0, 46, 98); ">INTERNEWS</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(23, 54, 93); "> </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">|</span><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 112, 192);
"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
color: rgb(13, 92, 171); ">Local Voices. Global
Change.</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;
font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; "><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internews.org/" style="color:
purple; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; ">www.internews.org</span></a><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 9pt;"> | </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.twitter.com/internews"
style="color: purple; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span
style="font-size: 9pt; ">@internews</span></a><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 9pt;"> | </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/internews"
style="color: purple; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span
style="font-size: 9pt; ">facebook.com/internews</span></a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;
text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium medium;
border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); "><span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday,
December 10, 2013 at 11:02 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>>,
Mike Godwin <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@internews.org">mgodwin@internews.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
[bestbits] Reform surveillance<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div>If the supply side insists on personal information
for targeted advertising, isn't that entangled with
the data governments seek? <br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Mishi Choudhary <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>>
<br>
Date: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM (GMT-05:00) <br>
To: "Mike Godwin (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>>,<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance <br>
<br>
<br>
I agree with Mike that its crucial to reduce the
"demand-side" by<br>
regulating government access but I think the suppliers
of data are not<br>
as informed as they should and could be and the
companies have more to<br>
do at their end.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/09/2013 07:10 PM, Mike Godwin (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)
wrote:<br>
> Mishi quotes the Times:<br>
><br>
><br>
>> "While the Internet companies fight to
maintain authority over their<br>
>> customers¹ data, their business models depend
on collecting the same<br>
>> information that the spy agencies want, and
they have long cooperated<br>
>> with the government to some extent by handing
over data in response to<br>
>> legal requests.<br>
> This statement strikes me as disingenuously
oversimplistic on the Times¹s<br>
> part ‹ specifically, in saying that the Internet
companies are collecting<br>
> ³the same information that the spy agencies
want.² Yes, the agencies want<br>
> the data the companies have, but the companies
are gathering data about<br>
> consumption and viewing patterns, primarily. What
the agencies want is<br>
> traffic and association analysis, and they know
they can draw inferences<br>
> if they have large datasets.<br>
><br>
> This may seem like a subtle distinction, but
really it¹s not. It¹s like<br>
> saying ³I listen to changes in the tone of your
voice when you speak to<br>
> me, and so does the snooping spy who wiretaps
your phone, and therefore,<br>
> implicitly, the spy and I are both culpable
somehow.²<br>
><br>
> What I perceive in all this is an attempt to
muddy the issue and<br>
> delegitimize the internet companies¹ sincere
efforts to build and/or<br>
> restore consumer trust. I¹m critical of the
companies from time to time<br>
> (and there are times when I¹m mostly critical of
what all the companies<br>
> are doing), but to me the real analysis here is
that governments have<br>
> opportunistically taken advantage of what the
companies have been<br>
> gathering, most of the time in good faith, from
users.<br>
><br>
>> The new principles outlined by the companies
contain little information<br>
>> and few promises about their own practices,
which privacy advocates say<br>
>> contribute to the government¹s desire to tap
into the companies¹ data<br>
>> systems.<br>
>><br>
>> ³The companies are placing their users at
risk by collecting and<br>
>> retaining so much information,² said Marc
Rotenberg, president and<br>
>> executive director of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, a<br>
>> nonprofit research and advocacy organization.
³As long as this much<br>
>> personal data is collected and kept by these
companies, they are always<br>
>> going to be the target of government
collection efforts.²<br>
> I take Marc at his word, as always, but the fact
is that if the companies<br>
> cut their data gathering in half ‹ or even by a
factor of 10 or 100 ‹<br>
> governments will want to engage in bulk
collection and interception. The<br>
> key approach, in my view, is to try to reduce the
demand-side (by<br>
> regulating what governments can do) rather
conflate it with the supply<br>
> side (the fact that commercial enterprises gather
data from actual and<br>
> potential customers (or for them).<br>
><br>
><br>
> ‹Mike, speaking only for myself<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Warm Regards<br>
Mishi Choudhary, Esq.<br>
Legal Director<br>
Software Freedom Law Center<br>
1995 Broadway Floor 17<br>
New York, NY-10023<br>
(tel) 212-461-1912<br>
(fax) 212-580-0898<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.softwarefreedom.org">www.softwarefreedom.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Executive Director <br>
SFLC.IN<br>
K-9, Second Floor<br>
Jangpura Extn.<br>
New Delhi-110014<br>
(tel) +91-11-43587126 <br>
(fax) +91-11-24323530<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sflc.in">www.sflc.in</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<div align="center"><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#ffffff">Click <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/f2hWz8+MDeDGX2PQPOmvUhQdr9UqjTk1QiMnSFwB8MDRnYXJ4JW+BADY+tcuKsRBxv0BMu5XlMazbAWAmKJQAw==">here</a>
to report this email as spam.</font></div>
</font></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Warm Regards
Mishi Choudhary, Esq.
Legal Director
Software Freedom Law Center
1995 Broadway Floor 17
New York, NY-10023
(tel) 212-461-1912
(fax) 212-580-0898
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.softwarefreedom.org">www.softwarefreedom.org</a>
Executive Director
SFLC.IN
K-9, Second Floor
Jangpura Extn.
New Delhi-110014
(tel) +91-11-43587126
(fax) +91-11-24323530
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sflc.in">www.sflc.in</a>
</pre>
</body>
</html>