<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">+1<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">JC</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div>(lost in translation - or - don't follow me I'm lost too)</div>
<br><div><div>Le 10 déc. 2013 à 22:01, michael gurstein a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi Kevin,<br><br>I'm not sure that I understand what it is you are saying here. Could you<br>elaborate a bit. (for example "data being sought" ... sought by who?<br>"collected" ... collected by who? And so on...<br><br>Tks,<br><br>M<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>[mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of Kevin Bankston<br>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 2:58 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>; <a href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>;<br><a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance<br><br>Since 2005 when news about the NSA programs first broke, through to today,<br>I've yet to see anything reported anywhere about any of the data being<br>sought being data that would not have been collected but for targeted<br>advertising needs. Have I missed something?<br><br>On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:02 AM, "genekimmelman@gmail.com"<br><genekimmelman@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">If the supply side insists on personal information for targeted<br></blockquote>advertising, isn't that entangled with the data governments seek? <br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-------- Original message --------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: Mishi Choudhary <mishi@softwarefreedom.org><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Date: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM (GMT-05:00)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: "Mike Godwin (mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG)" <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG>,bestbits@lists.bestbits.net<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I agree with Mike that its crucial to reduce the "demand-side" by <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">regulating government access but I think the suppliers of data are not <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">as informed as they should and could be and the companies have more to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">do at their end.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 12/09/2013 07:10 PM, Mike Godwin (mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG) wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Mishi quotes the Times:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"While the Internet companies fight to maintain authority over <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">their customers¹ data, their business models depend on collecting <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the same information that the spy agencies want, and they have long <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cooperated with the government to some extent by handing over data <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">in response to legal requests.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This statement strikes me as disingenuously oversimplistic on the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Times¹s part ‹ specifically, in saying that the Internet companies <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">are collecting ³the same information that the spy agencies want.² <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Yes, the agencies want the data the companies have, but the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">companies are gathering data about consumption and viewing patterns, <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">primarily. What the agencies want is traffic and association <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">analysis, and they know they can draw inferences if they have large<br></blockquote></blockquote>datasets.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This may seem like a subtle distinction, but really it¹s not. It¹s <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">like saying ³I listen to changes in the tone of your voice when you <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">speak to me, and so does the snooping spy who wiretaps your phone, <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and therefore, implicitly, the spy and I are both culpable somehow.²<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">What I perceive in all this is an attempt to muddy the issue and <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">delegitimize the internet companies¹ sincere efforts to build and/or <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">restore consumer trust. I¹m critical of the companies from time to <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">time (and there are times when I¹m mostly critical of what all the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">companies are doing), but to me the real analysis here is that <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">governments have opportunistically taken advantage of what the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">companies have been gathering, most of the time in good faith, from<br></blockquote></blockquote>users.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The new principles outlined by the companies contain little <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">information and few promises about their own practices, which <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">privacy advocates say contribute to the government¹s desire to tap <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">into the companies¹ data systems.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">³The companies are placing their users at risk by collecting and <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">retaining so much information,² said Marc Rotenberg, president and <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">nonprofit research and advocacy organization. ³As long as this much <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">personal data is collected and kept by these companies, they are <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">always going to be the target of government collection efforts.²<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I take Marc at his word, as always, but the fact is that if the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">companies cut their data gathering in half ‹ or even by a factor of <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">10 or 100 ‹ governments will want to engage in bulk collection and <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">interception. The key approach, in my view, is to try to reduce the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">demand-side (by regulating what governments can do) rather conflate <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">it with the supply side (the fact that commercial enterprises gather <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">data from actual and potential customers (or for them).<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">‹Mike, speaking only for myself<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Warm Regards<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Mishi Choudhary, Esq.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Legal Director<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Software Freedom Law Center<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">1995 Broadway Floor 17<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">New York, NY-10023<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(tel) 212-461-1912<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(fax) 212-580-0898<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">www.softwarefreedom.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Executive Director<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">SFLC.IN<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">K-9, Second Floor<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Jangpura Extn.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">New Delhi-110014<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(tel) +91-11-43587126<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(fax) +91-11-24323530<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">www.sflc.in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">____________________________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> bestbits@lists.bestbits.net.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits<br></blockquote><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> bestbits@lists.bestbits.net.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>