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    <font face="Verdana">Fully support this. Lets give one full day to
      this...<br>
      <br>
      I have often wondered about the basic difference that my
      organisation has with many others in the IG space... and It boils
      down to what is meant by MSism. So I would gain a lot by together
      exploring what we really mean by it - generally, and in different
      specific relationships, and also its relationship to democracy.<br>
      parminder <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 27 August 2013 10:41 PM,
      Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CE429C24.2DD22%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
      type="cite">
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        <div>
          <div>I think it would be useful to have a basic discussion of
            what we mean by M/S in the BB framework</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment-->
              <p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
                  face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(72,
                      72, 72); ">Andrew Puddephatt, Director</span></b><b><span
                      style="color: rgb(49, 24, 72); ">         
                      Global Partners Digital </span></b><o:p></o:p></font></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
                  face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(90,
                      90, 90); ">Development House, 56-64 Leonard St,
                      EC2A 4LT, UK</span></b><b><span style="color:
                      rgb(90, 90, 90); "><o:p></o:p></span></b></font></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
                  face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(39,
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      <div><br>
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        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
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          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
            style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> michael gurstein
          <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, 27
          August 2013 02:42<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Jeremy Malcolm
          <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org">jeremy@ciroap.org</a>><br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> andrew Puddephatt
          <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
          "<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists. net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE:
          [bestbits] IGF plus<br>
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">My
                  apologies if I'm going over ground that has already
                  been sewn and harvested (I've been dealing with other
                  matters for the last 3 months or so) but the issue of
                  MSism really needs to start with a basic legitimacy of
                  the constituting of the various stakeholder elements…
                  how these interact to my mind (as covered in the items
                  you point to below) is I think, a secondary issue…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The
                  current status appears to be something like all actual
                  "stakeholders" are welcome (until they aren't),
                  everyone can be a stakeholder(until they can't--for
                  reasons of cost, voice, status, knowledge, skill
                  etc.), "legitimate" stakeholder groups can simply, by
                  showing up, obtain legitimacy without having to
                  subscribe to any type of formal internal process
                  (transparent, accountable etc.?) for the determination
                  of the nature of the "stake" that they are
                  "holding"/pursuing and so on, "legitimate
                  stakeholders" q.v. are welcome but there are no
                  effective means to facilitate participation of other
                  (new, non-existing stakeholders (or to legitimize
                  non-currently legitimized stakeholders… etc.etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">In
                  my blogpost of some time ago, I talked about
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/multistakeholderism-vs-democracy-my-adventures-in-stakeholderland/">MSism
                    vs. democracy</a> and I don't see that we/anyone has
                  made any progress in this area in the interim.  I'm
                  ready to agree that there are significant limitations
                  with the use of representative democracy in the IG
                  area but I am concerned that we may be too ready to
                  jump on the MS bandwagon without having a very clear
                  idea of what it means not only to us but to any of the
                  other MS parties.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">And
                  to respond to Andrew's question, I think the place to
                  start is at the beginning--by insisting on/initiating
                  some basic discussions on what is meant by MSism in
                  the various forums where it is being invoked and
                  working towards some sort of formalization (even if it
                  is the formalization of the informal) in these
                  processes at least to the extent of making them
                  visible and thus subject to discussion and
                  clarification. I'm thinking that the various workshops
                  addressing this at the IGF will begin the process but
                  I think we i.e. BB/CS has the
                  responsibility/opportunity to be thinking of where
                  this might go post IGF as for example into a
                  declaration on what we mean by MSism and how we
                  recognize MS processes which we believe are legitimate
                  from a CS perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">BTW,
                  to be clear, I'm raising this not to attempt to fork
                  other discussions but rather to suggest that unless
                  there is clarity and agreement on these fundamentals
                  it is hard to accept the legitimacy of anything that
                  follows from these i.e. MS processes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                        font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
                      sans-serif; "> Jeremy Malcolm [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org">mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2013 4:56 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> 'Andrew Puddephatt'; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] IGF plus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">On 26/08/2013, at 3:36 PM,
                    michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,
                        sans-serif; ">I think before we start thinking
                        about an IGF+ we need to be thinking about
                        getting some kind of "formalization"
                        (democratization etc.) in the MS processes that
                        are at the core of the IGF etc. Until
                        experiences like mine with the selection process
                        for the ECWG are worked through and some
                        determination is made as to what constitutes a
                        "stakeholder" group  and under what sort of
                        governance/transparency/accountability
                        structures those operate within I think it is
                        seriously premature to be thinking about an IGF
                        that is capable of working through to Soft Law
                        or whatever.  This isn't to say that we should
                        be working in that direction but just to say
                        that if the fundamentals aren't taken care of,
                        everything that follows is suspect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I agree with everything bar the
                  prefatory "before we start thinking about an IGF+" -
                  as indeed as soon as we start to think about an IGF+,
                  we are led inevitably to the reinforcement and
                  formalisation of the
                  IGF's governance/transparency/accountability
                  structures.<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">We have collectively begun to
                  explore the IGF+ with the "IGF multistakeholder
                  opinions" statement that many of us signed at <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://bestbits.net/igf-opinions/">http://bestbits.net/igf-opinions/</a>.
                   So that's a good starting point.<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I continue to stand by the slightly
                  more elaborate "Multistakeholder Internet Policy
                  Council" proposal that I developed for the CSTD
                  Working Group on Enhanced Cooperation.  See the thread
                  "<span style="font-size:9.0pt">Comparison of five
                    current civil society options" in the EC list for
                    more on this (21 July and following, or I can repost
                    here).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">For
                    more detail still (largely consistent with the
                    above, though with some differences in
                    nomenclature), there's the paper "</span>Appraising
                  the Success of the Internet Governance Forum<span
                    style="font-size:9.0pt">" that I wrote for the
                    Internet Governance Project some (five!) years ago
                    now, which is available from both
                  </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://igfwatch.org"><span
                      style="font-size:9.0pt">http://igfwatch.org</span></a><span
                    style="font-size:9.0pt"> and
                  </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.internetgovernance.org"><span
                      style="font-size:9.0pt">http://www.internetgovernance.org</span></a><span
                    style="font-size:9.0pt">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
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                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="font-size: 13.5pt; color:
                                      black; background-image: initial;
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                                      background-clip: initial;
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                                      sans-serif; background-position:
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                                      background-repeat: initial
                                      initial; ">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                  <p style="background:white"><b><span
                                        style="font-size: 9pt; color:
                                        black; font-family: Helvetica,
                                        sans-serif; ">Dr Jeremy Malcolm<br>
                                        Senior Policy Officer<br>
                                        Consumers International | the
                                        global campaigning voice for
                                        consumers</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size: 9pt; color:
                                      black; font-family: Helvetica,
                                      sans-serif; "><br>
                                      Office for Asia-Pacific and the
                                      Middle East<br>
                                      Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang
                                      Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala
                                      Lumpur, Malaysia<br>
                                      Tel: +60 3 7726 1599<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  <p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color:
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                                      initial; ">Explore our new
                                      Resource Zone - the global
                                      consumer movement knowledge hub |</span><a
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                                      href="http://www.facebook.com/consumersinternational"><span
                                        style="font-size: 9pt;
                                        font-family: Helvetica,
                                        sans-serif; ">www.facebook.com/consumersinternational</span></a><span
                                      style="font-size: 9pt; color:
                                      black; font-family: Helvetica,
                                      sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  <p style="background:white"><span
                                      style="font-size: 8pt; color:
                                      rgb(153, 153, 153); font-family:
                                      Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Read our </span><a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://www.consumersinternational.org/email-confidentiality"
                                      target="_blank"><span
                                        style="font-size: 8pt;
                                        font-family: Helvetica,
                                        sans-serif; ">email
                                        confidentiality notice</span></a><span
                                      style="font-size: 8pt; color:
                                      rgb(153, 153, 153); font-family:
                                      Helvetica, sans-serif; ">. Don't
                                      print this email unless necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  <p style="background:white"><b><span
                                        style="color:#FF2600">WARNING</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size: 13.5pt; color:
                                      black; font-family: Helvetica,
                                      sans-serif; ">: This email has not
                                      been encrypted. You are strongly
                                      recommended to enable PGP or
                                      S/MIME encryption at your end. For
                                      instructions, see </span><a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://jere.my/l/8m"
title="https://luxsci.com/blog/installing-smime-and-pgp-encryption-certificates-into-major-email-clients.html"><span
                                        style="font-size: 13.5pt; color:
                                        rgb(153, 153, 153); font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif; ">http://jere.my/l/8m</span></a><span
                                      style="font-size: 13.5pt; color:
                                      black; font-family: Helvetica,
                                      sans-serif; ">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
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