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<br>
<font face="Verdana">Fully support this. Lets give one full day to
this...<br>
<br>
I have often wondered about the basic difference that my
organisation has with many others in the IG space... and It boils
down to what is meant by MSism. So I would gain a lot by together
exploring what we really mean by it - generally, and in different
specific relationships, and also its relationship to democracy.<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 27 August 2013 10:41 PM,
Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CE429C24.2DD22%25andrew@gp-digital.org"
type="cite">
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charset=windows-1252">
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<div>
<div>I think it would be useful to have a basic discussion of
what we mean by M/S in the BB framework</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(72,
72, 72); ">Andrew Puddephatt, Director</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(49, 24, 72); ">
Global Partners Digital </span></b><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(90,
90, 90); ">Development House, 56-64 Leonard St,
EC2A 4LT, UK</span></b><b><span style="color:
rgb(90, 90, 90); "><o:p></o:p></span></b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(39,
37, 65); ">Office </span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(23, 35, 66); ">44 (0)207 549
0350</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(90, 90,
90); "><o:p></o:p></span></b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
face="Calibri" size="3"><b><span style="color: rgb(72,
72, 72); ">Mobile: +44 (0)771 339 9597</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(90, 90, 90); "><o:p></o:p></span></b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span"
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text-underline:none"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@global-partners.co.uk">andrew@g</a>p-digital.org</span></span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(72, 72, 72); ">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.global-partners.co.uk/"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 42, 222);
text-decoration: none; ">www.global-partners.co.uk</span></a></span></b></font><span
style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div>
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style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> michael gurstein
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, 27
August 2013 02:42<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Jeremy Malcolm
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org">jeremy@ciroap.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> andrew Puddephatt
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@gp-digital.org">andrew@gp-digital.org</a>>,
"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.net"><bestbits@lists. net></a>" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE:
[bestbits] IGF plus<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">My
apologies if I'm going over ground that has already
been sewn and harvested (I've been dealing with other
matters for the last 3 months or so) but the issue of
MSism really needs to start with a basic legitimacy of
the constituting of the various stakeholder elements…
how these interact to my mind (as covered in the items
you point to below) is I think, a secondary issue…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The
current status appears to be something like all actual
"stakeholders" are welcome (until they aren't),
everyone can be a stakeholder(until they can't--for
reasons of cost, voice, status, knowledge, skill
etc.), "legitimate" stakeholder groups can simply, by
showing up, obtain legitimacy without having to
subscribe to any type of formal internal process
(transparent, accountable etc.?) for the determination
of the nature of the "stake" that they are
"holding"/pursuing and so on, "legitimate
stakeholders" q.v. are welcome but there are no
effective means to facilitate participation of other
(new, non-existing stakeholders (or to legitimize
non-currently legitimized stakeholders… etc.etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">In
my blogpost of some time ago, I talked about
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/multistakeholderism-vs-democracy-my-adventures-in-stakeholderland/">MSism
vs. democracy</a> and I don't see that we/anyone has
made any progress in this area in the interim. I'm
ready to agree that there are significant limitations
with the use of representative democracy in the IG
area but I am concerned that we may be too ready to
jump on the MS bandwagon without having a very clear
idea of what it means not only to us but to any of the
other MS parties.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">And
to respond to Andrew's question, I think the place to
start is at the beginning--by insisting on/initiating
some basic discussions on what is meant by MSism in
the various forums where it is being invoked and
working towards some sort of formalization (even if it
is the formalization of the informal) in these
processes at least to the extent of making them
visible and thus subject to discussion and
clarification. I'm thinking that the various workshops
addressing this at the IGF will begin the process but
I think we i.e. BB/CS has the
responsibility/opportunity to be thinking of where
this might go post IGF as for example into a
declaration on what we mean by MSism and how we
recognize MS processes which we believe are legitimate
from a CS perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">BTW,
to be clear, I'm raising this not to attempt to fork
other discussions but rather to suggest that unless
there is clarity and agreement on these fundamentals
it is hard to accept the legitimacy of anything that
follows from these i.e. MS processes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif; "> Jeremy Malcolm [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org">mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2013 4:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Andrew Puddephatt'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] IGF plus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 26/08/2013, at 3:36 PM,
michael gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; ">I think before we start thinking
about an IGF+ we need to be thinking about
getting some kind of "formalization"
(democratization etc.) in the MS processes that
are at the core of the IGF etc. Until
experiences like mine with the selection process
for the ECWG are worked through and some
determination is made as to what constitutes a
"stakeholder" group and under what sort of
governance/transparency/accountability
structures those operate within I think it is
seriously premature to be thinking about an IGF
that is capable of working through to Soft Law
or whatever. This isn't to say that we should
be working in that direction but just to say
that if the fundamentals aren't taken care of,
everything that follows is suspect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with everything bar the
prefatory "before we start thinking about an IGF+" -
as indeed as soon as we start to think about an IGF+,
we are led inevitably to the reinforcement and
formalisation of the
IGF's governance/transparency/accountability
structures.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We have collectively begun to
explore the IGF+ with the "IGF multistakeholder
opinions" statement that many of us signed at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bestbits.net/igf-opinions/">http://bestbits.net/igf-opinions/</a>.
So that's a good starting point.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I continue to stand by the slightly
more elaborate "Multistakeholder Internet Policy
Council" proposal that I developed for the CSTD
Working Group on Enhanced Cooperation. See the thread
"<span style="font-size:9.0pt">Comparison of five
current civil society options" in the EC list for
more on this (21 July and following, or I can repost
here).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">For
more detail still (largely consistent with the
above, though with some differences in
nomenclature), there's the paper "</span>Appraising
the Success of the Internet Governance Forum<span
style="font-size:9.0pt">" that I wrote for the
Internet Governance Project some (five!) years ago
now, which is available from both
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://igfwatch.org"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">http://igfwatch.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:9.0pt"> and
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetgovernance.org"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">http://www.internetgovernance.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color:
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sans-serif; ">Dr Jeremy Malcolm<br>
Senior Policy Officer<br>
Consumers International | the
global campaigning voice for
consumers</span></b><span
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Office for Asia-Pacific and the
Middle East<br>
Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang
Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala
Lumpur, Malaysia<br>
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color:
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Resource Zone - the global
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