<div dir="ltr"><div>+1 Parminder and Andrew. And I'm happy with the spirit of the letter. CTS/FGV will be happy to sign. Sorry for being off the thread for a while, we are also mobilizing things about Marco Civil over here so I'm a bit stressed. :) <br>

 <br></div>Do we already have any plans about how it is going to reach the Congress? <br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:14 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <br>
    <font face="Verdana">I am happy to accept Gene's amendment, but
      Kevin's goes too far. will justify my comment in a short while...
      parminder <br>
      <br>
      Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the collection of <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font><div><div class="h5">
    <div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:34 PM,
      Kevin Bankston wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      I strongly support the general sentiment that Parminder is seeking
      to add.  For what it's worth, here's a post that I and my
      colleague Emily wrote yesterday on the same point, urging our
      domestic audience and policymakers to pay more attention to the
      international/human rights implications, entitled "It's not just
      about US: How the NSA Threatens Human Rights Internationally": 
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href="https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally" target="_blank">https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally</a><br>


        <div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>However, I think it's worth noting at this point that
            because of the various company denials (some of them quite
            strenuous and clear), because of the Washington Post
            stepping back from some of its reporting, and because of
            conflicting reports in other major news outlets like the New
            York Times and Wired, we actually *do not know* how broad
            the data collection being done via "PRISM" under the FISA
            Amendments Act actually is; in other words, we have no idea
            whether or how proportionate it is.  It very well might be
            incredibly broad, which is certainly my fear; it may also be
            more targeted than we suspect.  Meanwhile, the other conduct
            that's been exposed--the disclosure of phone records--was in
            regard to calls made to or from or inside the US.  So, for
            that reason, I agree with Gene that it would be preferable
            that we have a little wiggle room--we actually *don't know*
            that there has been "large scale" access to non-US persons
            content at this point, even if we strongly suspect it.
             Furthermore, no one has said there was "no access obtained
            to content related to US citizens"; they've simply said
            (which is BS) "no one's listening to your calls", in
            reference to the PATRIOT 215 order for phone records.  So,
            I'd suggest editing Parminder's suggestion into something
            like...</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div><font face="Verdana">"We are extremely disappointed that,
              in the wake of the latest disclosures, statements by the
              US government have focused solely on assuring the American
              people that their privacy rights have been respected.  The
              right to privacy against overreaching government
              surveillance is a human right.  </font><font face="Verdana">Human rights are universal, belonging to
              all people regardless of nationality, and every government
              must refrain from violating them for all people, and not
              merely for its citizens. The US government's current and
              future surveillance law and practice must reflect this
              reality and respect everyone's human rights."</font><br>
            <div>
              <div>
                <span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
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                        <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
                            <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
                                    <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
                                        <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                                          <div>____________________________________</div>
                                          <div>Kevin S. Bankston</div>
                                          <div>Senior Counsel and Free
                                            Expression Director</div>
                                          <div>Center for Democracy
                                            & Technology</div>
                                          <div>1634 I St NW, Suite 1100</div>
                                          <div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
                                          <div><a href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a> direct</div>
                                          <div><a href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a> fax</div>
                                          <div><a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>Follow CDT on Twitter at
                                            @cendemtech</div>
                                        </div>
                                      </span></div>
                                  </span></div>
                              </span></div>
                          </span></div>
                      </span></div>
                  </span></span>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div>
                <div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Anja Kovacs
                  <a href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank"><anja@internetdemocracy.in></a> wrote:</div>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div>+1 on Parminder's additional suggested
                      paragraph, though in its original form (certainly
                      many of us feel our rights have been violated, not
                      sure we should leave it up to the US government to
                      decide whehter or not that has indeed
                      happened...).<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Thanks,<br>
                      Anja<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">On 13 June 2013 20:02,
                      michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                              can take a look for style and grammar…
                              Just alert me when there is a "finalized"
                              text… I'm out and about all day today so
                              won't likely get to in until tonight (East
                              coast Canada time) or tomorrow morning.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                              <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
                              [mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carolina Rossini<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:16
                              AM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> parminder<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a></span></p>
                          <div><br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Delivery of
                            International civil society letter to
                            Congress to follow up from HRC statement</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">I like parminder
                            suggestions on non-US citizens. </p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">
                                  I also agree with suggestion on
                                  delivering this on Monday.</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">Who could take a
                                  final look for style and grammar? Much
                                  of it was lost during the editing
                                  process. I can try, but it would be
                                  better if a native english speaker
                                  take the lead on the final round. </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">Carol</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 13,
                                    2013 at 10:08 AM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
                                    wrote:</p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
                                        statement has turned out well.
                                        However, I remain concerned
                                        about the fact that the issue of
                                        non citizens related content
                                        surveillance has not at all been
                                        addressed by the US authorities.
                                        They havent bothered to say a
                                        word on it (not that it is
                                        easily defensible).  I would
                                        like the group to consider
                                        adding the following paragraph
                                        somewhere......</span></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"We
                                        are extremely disappointed that,
                                        in all the post 'disclosures'
                                        statements, US authorities have
                                        only insisted that there was no
                                        access obtained to content
                                        related to <i>US citizens</i>,
                                        and just their communication
                                        meta-data was collected. There
                                        has not been  a word on the
                                        issue of large-scale access to
                                        content related to non US
                                        citizens, which is a violation
                                        of their human rights. The
                                        focussing of the US authorities
                                        on the difference between
                                        treatment of US citizens and
                                        non-citizens on an issue which
                                        essentially relates to violation
                                        of human rights is very
                                        problematic. Human rights are
                                        universal, and every government
                                        must refrain from violating them
                                        for all people, and not merely
                                        for its citizens. The current
                                        and future US law and practices
                                        on this matter should take note
                                        of this. "</span></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
                                        I  still have issues with the
                                        role of the involved companies,
                                        which I will address in a
                                        separate email. I am fine though
                                        to address them separately,
                                        through a possible second
                                        statement. <br>
                                        <br>
                                        Meanwhile the second sentence in
                                        the following somehow looks not
                                        quite right. </span></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"</span>T<span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">he
                                        introduction of<s> untargeted</s>
                                        surveillance mechanisms at the
                                        heart of global digital
                                        communications severely
                                        threatens human rights in the
                                        digital age. <b><i>These new
                                            forms of decentralized power
                                            reflect fundamental shifts
                                            in the structure of
                                            information systems in
                                            modern societies.</i></b>
                                        [3] <s>and a</s>Any step in
                                        this direction needs to be
                                        scrutinized through ample, deep
                                        and transparent debate.
                                        Interference with the human
                                        rights of citizens by any
                                        government, their own or
                                        foreign, is unacceptable."</span></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
                                        being referred to as a 'form of
                                        decentralised power'? From the
                                        reference I take it, it is about
                                        'arab spring' kind of people's
                                        power, but that doesnt look
                                        clear from the way the sentence
                                        is wedged between the other two
                                        sentences...<span style="color:#888888"><br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <span>parminder </span><br>
                                          <br>
                                        </span> </span></p>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Thursday
                                          13 June 2013 05:11 PM, Anja
                                          Kovacs wrote:</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">Also, in
                                            response to Parminder's
                                            questions: while we had
                                            agreed from the beginning
                                            that the focus of this
                                            particular statement would
                                            be the US Congress, I feel
                                            (and I just reread it to
                                            check) that it does
                                            foreground the concerns of
                                            non-US citizens/resident (as
                                            it was meant to do in my
                                            reading as well). Parminder,
                                            do you really feel that
                                            doesn't come out at all? In
                                            that case, we do have some
                                            more work to do....</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">On 13
                                              June 2013 16:28, Anja
                                              Kovacs <<a href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>
                                              wrote:</p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal">Anriette,
                                                  is there a strong
                                                  reason why you feel we
                                                  should release this
                                                  tomorrow already? My
                                                  inclination would be
                                                  to agree with Nnenna
                                                  and others and to wait
                                                  until Monday, but
                                                  would be keen to know
                                                  why you feel tomorrow
                                                  is a better idea. </p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On
                                                    13 June 2013 14:37,
                                                    Nnenna Nwakanma <<a href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>>
                                                    wrote:</p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi people</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                        will say  submit
                                                        on Monday.  When
                                                        you kick off the
                                                        week with it,
                                                        you will have
                                                        ample time to
                                                        rave up media
                                                        attention on
                                                        it..</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am hoping Mandela does not give up the
                                                        fight.. because
                                                        that will
                                                        overshadow any
                                                        other Internet
                                                        news...</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
                                                        I am booked for
                                                        the very first
                                                        Africa Internet
                                                        Summit in Lusaka
                                                        next week.  I do
                                                        hope to be able
                                                        to draw
                                                        attention to the
                                                        statement, as
                                                        well as some
                                                        that have been
                                                        made by Best
                                                        Bits.</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
                                                        Best of the
                                                        day..</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Nnenna</span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On
                                                        Thu, Jun 13,
                                                        2013 at 8:51 AM,
                                                        Anriette
                                                        Esterhuysen <<a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a>>
                                                        wrote:</p>
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                                                        <br>
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                                                        Greetings
                                                        everyone<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        Content is
                                                        coming along
                                                        well.<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        Jeremy, in
                                                        response to your
                                                        question, what
                                                        about giving
                                                        people until<br>
                                                        21h00 GMT/UTC
                                                        today, Thursday.
                                                        Then you can
                                                        close the text,
                                                        finalise it,<br>
                                                        and release for
                                                        sign-ons and
                                                        give people
                                                        until 16h00
                                                        GMT/UTC Friday
                                                        for<br>
                                                        sign ons and
                                                        then we can send
                                                        it off before
                                                        the end of the
                                                        business day<br>
                                                        in Washington DC
                                                        (will be 12h00
                                                        in DC).<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        That will
                                                        accommodate
                                                        Parminder's
                                                        request, but
                                                        still enable us
                                                        to get<br>
                                                        enough sign ons
                                                        and get the
                                                        letter to
                                                        Washington DC on
                                                        Friday. Only<br>
                                                        region that will
                                                        have a shortish
                                                        period for sign
                                                        ons will be the
                                                        Americas.<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        Will this work?<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        Anriette<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        On 13/06/2013
                                                        08:13, Jeremy
                                                        Malcolm wrote:<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        - --<br>
                                                        -
                                                        ------------------------------------------------------<br>
                                                        anriette
                                                        esterhuysen <a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br>
                                                        executive
                                                        director,
                                                        association for
                                                        progressive
                                                        communications<br>
                                                        <a href="http://www.apc.org/" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a><br>
                                                        po box 29755,
                                                        melville 2109<br>
                                                        south africa<br>
                                                        tel/fax <a href="tel:%2B27%2011%20726%201692" target="_blank">+27 11 726 1692</a><br>
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LQryTnfqihzYmhuKpApJr/PAvSd4PMcwMoSSLIMbNb77H7ewP6IopVKiFFM4iAA=<br>
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                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                  <br clear="all">
                                                </p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">--
                                                  <br>
                                                  Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                                                  The Internet Democracy
                                                  Project<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
                                                  @anjakovacs<br>
                                                  <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                            <br clear="all">
                                            <br>
                                            -- <br>
                                            Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                                            The Internet Democracy
                                            Project<br>
                                            <br>
                                            <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91
                                              9899028053</a> |
                                            @anjakovacs<br>
                                            <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></p>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">
                                         </p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                  <br clear="all">
                                </p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">
                                    <b>Carolina Rossini</b> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#3333ff"><a href="http://carolinarossini.net/" target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">+ 1
                                          <a href="tel:6176979389" value="+16176979389" target="_blank">6176979389</a></span><br>
                                        <span style="color:#666666">*</span><a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#666666">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</span></a><span style="color:#666666">*</span></p>


                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">skype:
                                      carolrossini</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">@carolinarossini</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <br>
                    -- <br>
                    Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                    The Internet Democracy Project<br>
                    <br>
                    <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" value="+919899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> | @anjakovacs<br>
                    <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a><br>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <br>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><br>-- <br><br>Joana Varon Ferraz<br>Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)<a href="http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/" target="_blank"></a><br>@joana_varon<br>


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