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<font face="Verdana"> Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the
collection of direct content related info on non US citizens was
in fact much larger than what most suspect at present. See
Snowdon's latest statements at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak">http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak</a><br>
<br>
Of particular significance is this quote "</font><font
face="Verdana">
"We hack network backbones -- like huge Internet routers,
basically -- that give us access to the communications of hundreds
of thousands of computers without having to hack every single
one." (Snowdon is in an extremly precarious position, and must be
careful about what he says, and its veracity.)<br>
<br>
Now, network backbone hacking seems to go beyond accessing the
servers of Microsoft, Google, Fscebook and 6 other companies that
have been under focus. We still do not know the processes and
outcomes of these direct network backbone hacking , and it may be
contained in the numerous documents that Snowdon shared and
newspapers are still keeping from us. <br>
<br>
Also worrying for me is your reference to FISA text in an earlier
email that "outside US to outside US" content could be hacked with
no court order. Snowdon further says in the above piece that even
universties and students were targetted. I have a feeling that
under conditions requiring no court orders, US intelligence guys
simply went berserk over the technical possibilities that they
found at their hand, Every piece of evidence points to this, and I
would like to go by this presumption till compelling eivdence to
the contrary is shown. <br>
<br>
We are making a civil society statement, we are not making a
judicial pronouncement. The evidence we got at present is enough
for making such a statement. We are happy to be responded to by US
authorities - who have not bothered to utter one word about
direct content surveillance of non US citizens - that what we say
is not true, and this and this is the proof of that...<br>
<br>
I would like to keep the text I suggested in, with possibly
Gene's amendments...<br>
<br>
Of course, happy to discuss this further.<br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:44 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:51B9EFDA.2040400@itforchange.net" type="cite">
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<br>
<font face="Verdana">I am happy to accept Gene's amendment, but
Kevin's goes too far. will justify my comment in a short
while... parminder <br>
<br>
Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the collection of <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:34 PM,
Kevin Bankston wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:44286165-5A5B-4CC0-9CB8-36ED5D91F315@cdt.org"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
I strongly support the general sentiment that Parminder is
seeking to add. For what it's worth, here's a post that I and
my colleague Emily wrote yesterday on the same point, urging our
domestic audience and policymakers to pay more attention to the
international/human rights implications, entitled "It's not just
about US: How the NSA Threatens Human Rights Internationally":
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally">https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally</a><br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I think it's worth noting at this point that
because of the various company denials (some of them quite
strenuous and clear), because of the Washington Post
stepping back from some of its reporting, and because of
conflicting reports in other major news outlets like the
New York Times and Wired, we actually *do not know* how
broad the data collection being done via "PRISM" under the
FISA Amendments Act actually is; in other words, we have
no idea whether or how proportionate it is. It very well
might be incredibly broad, which is certainly my fear; it
may also be more targeted than we suspect. Meanwhile, the
other conduct that's been exposed--the disclosure of phone
records--was in regard to calls made to or from or inside
the US. So, for that reason, I agree with Gene that it
would be preferable that we have a little wiggle room--we
actually *don't know* that there has been "large scale"
access to non-US persons content at this point, even if we
strongly suspect it. Furthermore, no one has said there
was "no access obtained to content related to US
citizens"; they've simply said (which is BS) "no one's
listening to your calls", in reference to the PATRIOT 215
order for phone records. So, I'd suggest editing
Parminder's suggestion into something like...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana">"We are extremely disappointed
that, in the wake of the latest disclosures, statements
by the US government have focused solely on assuring the
American people that their privacy rights have been
respected. The right to privacy against overreaching
government surveillance is a human right. </font><font
face="Verdana">Human rights are universal, belonging to
all people regardless of nationality, and every
government must refrain from violating them for all
people, and not merely for its citizens. The US
government's current and future surveillance law and
practice must reflect this reality and respect
everyone's human rights."</font><br>
<div>
<div> <span class="Apple-style-span"
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class="Apple-style-span"
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after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate;
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
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class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<div style="word-wrap:
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<div>____________________________________</div>
<div>Kevin S. Bankston</div>
<div>Senior Counsel and Free
Expression Director</div>
<div>Center for Democracy
& Technology</div>
<div>1634 I St NW, Suite
1100</div>
<div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
<div>202.407.8834 direct</div>
<div>202.637.0968 fax</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Follow CDT on Twitter
at @cendemtech</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span> </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Anja Kovacs <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in"><anja@internetdemocracy.in></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>+1 on Parminder's additional suggested
paragraph, though in its original form
(certainly many of us feel our rights have been
violated, not sure we should leave it up to the
US government to decide whehter or not that has
indeed happened...).<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,<br>
Anja<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 13 June 2013 20:02,
michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
can take a look for style and grammar…
Just alert me when there is a
"finalized" text… I'm out and about all
day today so won't likely get to in
until tonight (East coast Canada time)
or tomorrow morning.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carolina Rossini<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2013
10:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> parminder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a></span></p>
<div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Delivery of
International civil society letter to
Congress to follow up from HRC statement</div>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I like parminder
suggestions on non-US citizens. </p>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I also agree
with suggestion on delivering this
on Monday.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Who could take a
final look for style and grammar?
Much of it was lost during the
editing process. I can try, but it
would be better if a native english
speaker take the lead on the final
round. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Carol</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 13,
2013 at 10:08 AM, parminder <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <br>
<span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
statement has turned out well.
However, I remain concerned
about the fact that the issue
of non citizens related
content surveillance has not
at all been addressed by the
US authorities. They havent
bothered to say a word on it
(not that it is easily
defensible). I would like the
group to consider adding the
following paragraph
somewhere......</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"We
are extremely disappointed
that, in all the post
'disclosures' statements, US
authorities have only insisted
that there was no access
obtained to content related to
<i>US citizens</i>, and just
their communication meta-data
was collected. There has not
been a word on the issue of
large-scale access to content
related to non US citizens,
which is a violation of their
human rights. The focussing of
the US authorities on the
difference between treatment
of US citizens and
non-citizens on an issue which
essentially relates to
violation of human rights is
very problematic. Human rights
are universal, and every
government must refrain from
violating them for all people,
and not merely for its
citizens. The current and
future US law and practices on
this matter should take note
of this. "</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
I still have issues with the
role of the involved
companies, which I will
address in a separate email. I
am fine though to address them
separately, through a possible
second statement. <br>
<br>
Meanwhile the second sentence
in the following somehow looks
not quite right. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"</span>T<span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">he
introduction of<s> untargeted</s>
surveillance mechanisms at the
heart of global digital
communications severely
threatens human rights in the
digital age. <b><i>These new
forms of decentralized
power reflect fundamental
shifts in the structure of
information systems in
modern societies.</i></b>
[3] <s>and a</s>Any step in
this direction needs to be
scrutinized through ample,
deep and transparent debate.
Interference with the human
rights of citizens by any
government, their own or
foreign, is unacceptable."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
being referred to as a 'form
of decentralised power'? From
the reference I take it, it is
about 'arab spring' kind of
people's power, but that
doesnt look clear from the way
the sentence is wedged between
the other two sentences...<span
style="color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
<span>parminder </span><br>
<br>
</span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Thursday 13 June 2013 05:11
PM, Anja Kovacs wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also,
in response to Parminder's
questions: while we had
agreed from the beginning
that the focus of this
particular statement would
be the US Congress, I feel
(and I just reread it to
check) that it does
foreground the concerns of
non-US citizens/resident
(as it was meant to do in
my reading as well).
Parminder, do you really
feel that doesn't come out
at all? In that case, we
do have some more work to
do....</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 13
June 2013 16:28, Anja
Kovacs <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anriette,
is there a strong
reason why you feel
we should release
this tomorrow
already? My
inclination would be
to agree with Nnenna
and others and to
wait until Monday,
but would be keen to
know why you feel
tomorrow is a better
idea. </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
13 June 2013
14:37, Nnenna
Nwakanma <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi people</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">I
will say
submit on
Monday. When
you kick off
the week with
it, you will
have ample
time to rave
up media
attention on
it..</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am hoping Mandela does not give up the
fight..
because that
will
overshadow any
other Internet
news...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> I am booked for the very first Africa
Internet
Summit in
Lusaka next
week. I do
hope to be
able to draw
attention to
the statement,
as well as
some that have
been made by
Best Bits.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Best of the day..</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">Nnenna</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Thu, Jun 13,
2013 at 8:51
AM, Anriette
Esterhuysen
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <br>
-----BEGIN PGP
SIGNED
MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
Greetings
everyone<br>
<br>
Content is
coming along
well.<br>
<br>
Jeremy, in
response to
your question,
what about
giving people
until<br>
21h00 GMT/UTC
today,
Thursday. Then
you can close
the text,
finalise it,<br>
and release
for sign-ons
and give
people until
16h00 GMT/UTC
Friday for<br>
sign ons and
then we can
send it off
before the end
of the
business day<br>
in Washington
DC (will be
12h00 in DC).<br>
<br>
That will
accommodate
Parminder's
request, but
still enable
us to get<br>
enough sign
ons and get
the letter to
Washington DC
on Friday.
Only<br>
region that
will have a
shortish
period for
sign ons will
be the
Americas.<br>
<br>
Will this
work?<br>
<br>
Anriette<br>
<br>
<br>
On 13/06/2013
08:13, Jeremy
Malcolm wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
- --<br>
-
------------------------------------------------------<br>
anriette
esterhuysen <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br>
executive
director,
association
for
progressive
communications<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.apc.org/" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a><br>
po box 29755,
melville 2109<br>
south africa<br>
tel/fax <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B27%2011%20726%201692" target="_blank">+27 11 726 1692</a><br>
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class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">-- <br>
Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
The Internet
Democracy Project<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
@anjakovacs<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
The Internet Democracy
Project<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
@anjakovacs<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <b>Carolina
Rossini</b> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#3333ff"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://carolinarossini.net/"
target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">+ 1
6176979389</span><br>
<span style="color:#666666">*</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#666666">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="color:#666666">*</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">skype:
carolrossini</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">@carolinarossini</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
The Internet Democracy Project<br>
<br>
+91 9899028053 | @anjakovacs<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/"
target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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