<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I'm all for avoiding conflating the PRISM and records issues.<br><br>Sent via mobile</div><div><br>On Jun 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<font face="Verdana">To further clarify. The main point in my
addition which goes away with Kevin's amendment is the fact of
making the distinction between the claimed meta data related
surveillance of </font>US citizens and direct access to actual
content in case of PRISM operations that relate to non US
residents... Inside the US, the discussion seem to keep conflating
these two very different kinds and levels of incursions and
therefore in my view a global civil society statement should make
the distinction clear.... And of course I also insist to harp on the
fact that while US authorities have made so many statements
stressing that the content related to US citizens was never
accessed, they havent said a word about having made such
infringements vis a vis non US citizens. I think that non US
citizens have a right to stress this point . Happy to hear Kevin on
this ..<br>
<br>
However I may very soon be going offline, <br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 June 2013 10:28 PM,
Carolina Rossini wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAK-FJAcXGDv=zJg+05JeS_AbnAWfe6+7NDDUhATcq6-z3fX0kg@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">Dear Kevin and Parminder,<br>
<br>
Do you think there is any specific contribution to the letter you
can make based on the debate below? I just want to be sure we are
channeling this energy in the lists to the word that will become
public. <br>
<br>
Btw, I have already incorporated Parminder's earlier
contributions. <br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<font face="Verdana"> Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that
the collection of direct content related info on non US
citizens was in fact much larger than what most suspect at
present. See Snowdon's latest statements at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak</a><br>
<br>
Of particular significance is this quote "</font><font face="Verdana"> "We hack network backbones -- like huge
Internet routers, basically -- that give us access to the
communications of hundreds of thousands of computers
without having to hack every single one." (Snowdon is in
an extremly precarious position, and must be careful about
what he says, and its veracity.)<br>
<br>
Now, network backbone hacking seems to go beyond accessing
the servers of Microsoft, Google, Fscebook and 6 other
companies that have been under focus. We still do not know
the processes and outcomes of these direct network
backbone hacking , and it may be contained in the numerous
documents that Snowdon shared and newspapers are still
keeping from us. <br>
<br>
Also worrying for me is your reference to FISA text in an
earlier email that "outside US to outside US" content
could be hacked with no court order. Snowdon further says
in the above piece that even universties and students were
targetted. I have a feeling that under conditions
requiring no court orders, US intelligence guys simply
went berserk over the technical possibilities that they
found at their hand, Every piece of evidence points to
this, and I would like to go by this presumption till
compelling eivdence to the contrary is shown. <br>
<br>
We are making a civil society statement, we are not making
a judicial pronouncement. The evidence we got at present
is enough for making such a statement. We are happy to be
responded to by US authorities - who have not bothered to
utter one word about direct content surveillance of non US
citizens - that what we say is not true, and this and this
is the proof of that...<br>
<br>
I would like to keep the text I suggested in, with
possibly Gene's amendments...<br>
<br>
Of course, happy to discuss this further.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
</font></span></font>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:44 PM, parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
<font face="Verdana">I am happy to accept Gene's
amendment, but Kevin's goes too far. will justify my
comment in a short while... parminder <br>
<br>
Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the collection
of <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:34 PM, Kevin Bankston
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> I strongly support the
general sentiment that Parminder is seeking to add.
For what it's worth, here's a post that I and my
colleague Emily wrote yesterday on the same point,
urging our domestic audience and policymakers to pay
more attention to the international/human rights
implications, entitled "It's not just about US: How
the NSA Threatens Human Rights Internationally":
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally" target="_blank">https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally</a><br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I think it's worth noting at this
point that because of the various company
denials (some of them quite strenuous and
clear), because of the Washington Post
stepping back from some of its reporting, and
because of conflicting reports in other major
news outlets like the New York Times and
Wired, we actually *do not know* how broad the
data collection being done via "PRISM" under
the FISA Amendments Act actually is; in other
words, we have no idea whether or how
proportionate it is. It very well might be
incredibly broad, which is certainly my fear;
it may also be more targeted than we suspect.
Meanwhile, the other conduct that's been
exposed--the disclosure of phone records--was
in regard to calls made to or from or inside
the US. So, for that reason, I agree with
Gene that it would be preferable that we have
a little wiggle room--we actually *don't know*
that there has been "large scale" access to
non-US persons content at this point, even if
we strongly suspect it. Furthermore, no one
has said there was "no access obtained to
content related to US citizens"; they've
simply said (which is BS) "no one's listening
to your calls", in reference to the PATRIOT
215 order for phone records. So, I'd suggest
editing Parminder's suggestion into something
like...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana">"We are extremely
disappointed that, in the wake of the latest
disclosures, statements by the US government
have focused solely on assuring the American
people that their privacy rights have been
respected. The right to privacy against
overreaching government surveillance is a
human right. </font><font face="Verdana">Human
rights are universal, belonging to all
people regardless of nationality, and every
government must refrain from violating them
for all people, and not merely for its
citizens. The US government's current and
future surveillance law and practice must
reflect this reality and respect everyone's
human rights."</font><br>
<div>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>____________________________________</div>
<div>Kevin S.
Bankston</div>
<div>Senior
Counsel and
Free
Expression
Director</div>
<div>Center for
Democracy
&
Technology</div>
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NW, Suite 1100</div>
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<br>
<div>
<div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Anja
Kovacs <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank"><anja@internetdemocracy.in></a>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
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