Dear Kevin and Parminder,<br><br>Do you think there is any specific contribution to the letter you can make based on the debate below? I just want to be sure we are channeling this energy in the lists to the word that will become public. <br>
<br>Btw, I have already incorporated Parminder's earlier contributions.  <br><br>Carol<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <br>
    <font face="Verdana"> Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the
      collection of direct content related info on non US citizens was
      in fact much larger than what most suspect at present. See
      Snowdon's latest statements at
      <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak</a><br>
      <br>
      Of particular significance is this quote "</font><font face="Verdana">
      "We hack network backbones -- like huge Internet routers,
      basically -- that give us access to the communications of hundreds
      of thousands of computers without having to hack every single
      one."  (Snowdon is in an extremly precarious position, and must be
      careful about what he says, and its veracity.)<br>
      <br>
      Now, network backbone hacking seems to go beyond accessing the
      servers of Microsoft, Google, Fscebook and 6 other companies that
      have been under focus. We still do not know the processes and
      outcomes of these direct network backbone hacking , and it may be
      contained in the numerous documents that Snowdon shared and
      newspapers are still keeping from us. <br>
      <br>
      Also worrying for me is your reference to FISA text in an earlier
      email that "outside US to outside US" content could be hacked with
      no court order. Snowdon further says in the above piece that even
      universties and students were targetted. I have a feeling that
      under conditions requiring no court orders, US intelligence guys
      simply went berserk over the technical possibilities that they
      found at their hand, Every piece of evidence points to this, and I
      would like to go by this presumption till compelling eivdence to
      the contrary is shown. <br>
      <br>
      We are making a civil society statement, we are not making a
      judicial pronouncement. The evidence we got at present is enough
      for making such a statement. We are happy to be responded to by US
      authorities  - who have not bothered to utter one word about
      direct content surveillance of non US citizens - that what we say
      is not true, and this and this is the proof of that...<br>
      <br>
       I would like to keep the text I suggested in, with possibly
      Gene's amendments...<br>
      <br>
      Of course, happy to discuss this further.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
      <br>
      Parminder  <br>
      <br>
    </font></span></font><div><div class="h5">
    <div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:44 PM,
      parminder wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <br>
      <font face="Verdana">I am happy to accept Gene's amendment, but
        Kevin's goes too far. will justify my comment in a short
        while... parminder <br>
        <br>
        Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the collection of <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
      </font>
      <div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:34 PM,
        Kevin Bankston wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        
        I strongly support the general sentiment that Parminder is
        seeking to add.  For what it's worth, here's a post that I and
        my colleague Emily wrote yesterday on the same point, urging our
        domestic audience and policymakers to pay more attention to the
        international/human rights implications, entitled "It's not just
        about US: How the NSA Threatens Human Rights Internationally": 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><a href="https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally" target="_blank">https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally</a><br>

          <div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>However, I think it's worth noting at this point that
              because of the various company denials (some of them quite
              strenuous and clear), because of the Washington Post
              stepping back from some of its reporting, and because of
              conflicting reports in other major news outlets like the
              New York Times and Wired, we actually *do not know* how
              broad the data collection being done via "PRISM" under the
              FISA Amendments Act actually is; in other words, we have
              no idea whether or how proportionate it is.  It very well
              might be incredibly broad, which is certainly my fear; it
              may also be more targeted than we suspect.  Meanwhile, the
              other conduct that's been exposed--the disclosure of phone
              records--was in regard to calls made to or from or inside
              the US.  So, for that reason, I agree with Gene that it
              would be preferable that we have a little wiggle room--we
              actually *don't know* that there has been "large scale"
              access to non-US persons content at this point, even if we
              strongly suspect it.  Furthermore, no one has said there
              was "no access obtained to content related to US
              citizens"; they've simply said (which is BS) "no one's
              listening to your calls", in reference to the PATRIOT 215
              order for phone records.  So, I'd suggest editing
              Parminder's suggestion into something like...</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><font face="Verdana">"We are extremely disappointed
                that, in the wake of the latest disclosures, statements
                by the US government have focused solely on assuring the
                American people that their privacy rights have been
                respected.  The right to privacy against overreaching
                government surveillance is a human right.  </font><font face="Verdana">Human rights are universal, belonging to
                all people regardless of nationality, and every
                government must refrain from violating them for all
                people, and not merely for its citizens. The US
                government's current and future surveillance law and
                practice must reflect this reality and respect
                everyone's human rights."</font><br>
              <div>
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                                          <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div>____________________________________</div>
                                            <div>Kevin S. Bankston</div>
                                            <div>Senior Counsel and Free
                                              Expression Director</div>
                                            <div>Center for Democracy
                                              & Technology</div>
                                            <div>1634 I St NW, Suite
                                              1100</div>
                                            <div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
                                            <div><a href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a> direct</div>
                                            <div><a href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a> fax</div>
                                            <div><a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>Follow CDT on Twitter
                                              at @cendemtech</div>
                                          </div>
                                        </span></div>
                                    </span></div>
                                </span></div>
                            </span></div>
                        </span></div>
                    </span></span> </div>
                <br>
                <div>
                  <div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Anja Kovacs <a href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank"><anja@internetdemocracy.in></a>
                    wrote:</div>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>+1 on Parminder's additional suggested
                        paragraph, though in its original form
                        (certainly many of us feel our rights have been
                        violated, not sure we should leave it up to the
                        US government to decide whehter or not that has
                        indeed happened...).<br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Thanks,<br>
                        Anja<br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On 13 June 2013 20:02,
                        michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                can take a look for style and grammar…
                                Just alert me when there is a
                                "finalized" text… I'm out and about all
                                day today so won't likely get to in
                                until tonight (East coast Canada time)
                                or tomorrow morning.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
                                [mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
                                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carolina Rossini<br>
                                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2013
                                10:16 AM<br>
                                <b>To:</b> parminder<br>
                                <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a></span></p>
                            <div><br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Delivery of
                              International civil society letter to
                              Congress to follow up from HRC statement</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">I like parminder
                              suggestions on non-US citizens. </p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> I also agree
                                    with suggestion on delivering this
                                    on Monday.</p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Who could take a
                                    final look for style and grammar?
                                    Much of it was lost during the
                                    editing process. I can try, but it
                                    would be better if a native english
                                    speaker take the lead on the final
                                    round. </p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Carol</p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 13,
                                      2013 at 10:08 AM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>

                                      wrote:</p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <br>
                                        <span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The

                                          statement has turned out well.
                                          However, I remain concerned
                                          about the fact that the issue
                                          of non citizens related
                                          content surveillance has not
                                          at all been addressed by the
                                          US authorities. They havent
                                          bothered to say a word on it
                                          (not that it is easily
                                          defensible).  I would like the
                                          group to consider adding the
                                          following paragraph
                                          somewhere......</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"We

                                          are extremely disappointed
                                          that, in all the post
                                          'disclosures' statements, US
                                          authorities have only insisted
                                          that there was no access
                                          obtained to content related to
                                          <i>US citizens</i>, and just
                                          their communication meta-data
                                          was collected. There has not
                                          been  a word on the issue of
                                          large-scale access to content
                                          related to non US citizens,
                                          which is a violation of their
                                          human rights. The focussing of
                                          the US authorities on the
                                          difference between treatment
                                          of US citizens and
                                          non-citizens on an issue which
                                          essentially relates to
                                          violation of human rights is
                                          very problematic. Human rights
                                          are universal, and every
                                          government must refrain from
                                          violating them for all people,
                                          and not merely for its
                                          citizens. The current and
                                          future US law and practices on
                                          this matter should take note
                                          of this. "</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
                                          I  still have issues with the
                                          role of the involved
                                          companies, which I will
                                          address in a separate email. I
                                          am fine though to address them
                                          separately, through a possible
                                          second statement. <br>
                                          <br>
                                          Meanwhile the second sentence
                                          in the following somehow looks
                                          not quite right. </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"</span>T<span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">he
                                          introduction of<s> untargeted</s>
                                          surveillance mechanisms at the
                                          heart of global digital
                                          communications severely
                                          threatens human rights in the
                                          digital age. <b><i>These new
                                              forms of decentralized
                                              power reflect fundamental
                                              shifts in the structure of
                                              information systems in
                                              modern societies.</i></b>
                                          [3] <s>and a</s>Any step in
                                          this direction needs to be
                                          scrutinized through ample,
                                          deep and transparent debate.
                                          Interference with the human
                                          rights of citizens by any
                                          government, their own or
                                          foreign, is unacceptable."</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
                                          being referred to as a 'form
                                          of decentralised power'? From
                                          the reference I take it, it is
                                          about 'arab spring' kind of
                                          people's power, but that
                                          doesnt look clear from the way
                                          the sentence is wedged between
                                          the other two sentences...<span style="color:#888888"><br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <span>parminder </span><br>
                                            <br>
                                          </span> </span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">On
                                            Thursday 13 June 2013 05:11
                                            PM, Anja Kovacs wrote:</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Also,
                                              in response to Parminder's
                                              questions: while we had
                                              agreed from the beginning
                                              that the focus of this
                                              particular statement would
                                              be the US Congress, I feel
                                              (and I just reread it to
                                              check) that it does
                                              foreground the concerns of
                                              non-US citizens/resident
                                              (as it was meant to do in
                                              my reading as well).
                                              Parminder, do you really
                                              feel that doesn't come out
                                              at all? In that case, we
                                              do have some more work to
                                              do....</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">On 13
                                                June 2013 16:28, Anja
                                                Kovacs <<a href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>

                                                wrote:</p>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Anriette,

                                                    is there a strong
                                                    reason why you feel
                                                    we should release
                                                    this tomorrow
                                                    already? My
                                                    inclination would be
                                                    to agree with Nnenna
                                                    and others and to
                                                    wait until Monday,
                                                    but would be keen to
                                                    know why you feel
                                                    tomorrow is a better
                                                    idea. </p>
                                                </div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
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                                                    <p class="MsoNormal">On

                                                      13 June 2013
                                                      14:37, Nnenna
                                                      Nwakanma <<a href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>>

                                                      wrote:</p>
                                                    <div>
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                                                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi people</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          will say 
                                                          submit on
                                                          Monday.  When
                                                          you kick off
                                                          the week with
                                                          it, you will
                                                          have ample
                                                          time to rave
                                                          up media
                                                          attention on
                                                          it..</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am hoping Mandela does not give up the
                                                          fight..
                                                          because that
                                                          will
                                                          overshadow any
                                                          other Internet
                                                          news...</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> I am booked for the very first Africa
                                                          Internet
                                                          Summit in
                                                          Lusaka next
                                                          week.  I do
                                                          hope to be
                                                          able to draw
                                                          attention to
                                                          the statement,
                                                          as well as
                                                          some that have
                                                          been made by
                                                          Best Bits.</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Best of the day..</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Nnenna</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
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                                                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
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                                                        <p class="MsoNormal">On

                                                          Thu, Jun 13,
                                                          2013 at 8:51
                                                          AM, Anriette
                                                          Esterhuysen
                                                          <<a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a>>
                                                          wrote:</p>
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                                                          Hash: SHA1<br>
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                                                          Greetings
                                                          everyone<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Content is
                                                          coming along
                                                          well.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Jeremy, in
                                                          response to
                                                          your question,
                                                          what about
                                                          giving people
                                                          until<br>
                                                          21h00 GMT/UTC
                                                          today,
                                                          Thursday. Then
                                                          you can close
                                                          the text,
                                                          finalise it,<br>
                                                          and release
                                                          for sign-ons
                                                          and give
                                                          people until
                                                          16h00 GMT/UTC
                                                          Friday for<br>
                                                          sign ons and
                                                          then we can
                                                          send it off
                                                          before the end
                                                          of the
                                                          business day<br>
                                                          in Washington
                                                          DC (will be
                                                          12h00 in DC).<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          That will
                                                          accommodate
                                                          Parminder's
                                                          request, but
                                                          still enable
                                                          us to get<br>
                                                          enough sign
                                                          ons and get
                                                          the letter to
                                                          Washington DC
                                                          on Friday.
                                                          Only<br>
                                                          region that
                                                          will have a
                                                          shortish
                                                          period for
                                                          sign ons will
                                                          be the
                                                          Americas.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Will this
                                                          work?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Anriette<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On 13/06/2013
                                                          08:13, Jeremy
                                                          Malcolm wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          - --<br>
                                                          -
                                                          ------------------------------------------------------<br>
                                                          anriette
                                                          esterhuysen <a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br>
                                                          executive
                                                          director,
                                                          association
                                                          for
                                                          progressive
                                                          communications<br>
                                                          <a href="http://www.apc.org/" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a><br>
                                                          po box 29755,
                                                          melville 2109<br>
                                                          south africa<br>
                                                          tel/fax <a href="tel:%2B27%2011%20726%201692" target="_blank">+27 11 726 1692</a><br>
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                                                          Thunderbird -
                                                          <a href="http://www.enigmail.net/" target="_blank">http://www.enigmail.net/</a><br>
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LQryTnfqihzYmhuKpApJr/PAvSd4PMcwMoSSLIMbNb77H7ewP6IopVKiFFM4iAA=<br>
                                                          =ssiT<br>
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                                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    </div>
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                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                    <br clear="all">
                                                  </p>
                                                </div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">-- <br>
                                                    Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                                                    The Internet
                                                    Democracy Project<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
                                                    @anjakovacs<br>
                                                    <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                              <br clear="all">
                                              <br>
                                              -- <br>
                                              Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                                              The Internet Democracy
                                              Project<br>
                                              <br>
                                              <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
                                              @anjakovacs<br>
                                              <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">  </p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                    <br clear="all">
                                  </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <b>Carolina
                                        Rossini</b> </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#3333ff"><a href="http://carolinarossini.net/" target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">+ 1
                                            <a href="tel:6176979389" value="+16176979389" target="_blank">6176979389</a></span><br>
                                          <span style="color:#666666">*</span><a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#666666">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</span></a><span style="color:#666666">*</span></p>

                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">skype:
                                        carolrossini</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666">@carolinarossini</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <br clear="all">
                      <br>
                      -- <br>
                      Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
                      The Internet Democracy Project<br>
                      <br>
                      <a href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" value="+919899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> | @anjakovacs<br>
                      <a href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a><br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div><b>Carolina Rossini</b> <div><div><font color="#3333ff"><a href="http://carolinarossini.net/" target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></font></div><div><font color="#666666">+ 1 6176979389</font><br>
<font color="#666666">*</font><a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" target="_blank">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a><font color="#666666">*</font></div></div></div><div><font color="#666666">skype: carolrossini</font></div>
<div><font color="#666666">@carolinarossini</font></div><div><br></div>