+1 on Kevin comments<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Kevin Bankston <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Ugh--used the old BestBits address. Using the new one.<div class="im"><br><div>
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<div>____________________________________</div><div>Kevin S. Bankston</div><div>Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director</div><div>Center for Democracy & Technology</div><div>1634 I St NW, Suite 1100</div><div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
<div><a href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a> direct</div><div><a href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a> fax</div><div><a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
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<br></div><div><div class="h5"><div><div>On Jun 12, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Kevin Bankston <<a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
Hi everyone--I'm not sure how BestBits got dropped from this thread? I thought that was going to be the main channel for work on this letter. So, adding back.<br><div>
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<div>____________________________________</div><div>Kevin S. Bankston</div><div>Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director</div><div>Center for Democracy & Technology</div><div>1634 I St NW, Suite 1100</div><div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
<div><a href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a> direct</div><div><a href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a> fax</div><div><a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Follow CDT on Twitter at @cendemtech</div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span>
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<br><div><div>On Jun 12, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Kevin Bankston <<a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">FAA was reauthorized in December 2012 until 2017. When dealing with Congress specific is always best but for now and for this group's purposes I think that just getting across the need for action is sufficient; the discussion about what specific amendments would be appropriate is a much more complex one that will take some time (you'll note that even the domestic advocacy effort, <a href="http://stopwatching.us/" target="_blank">stopwatching.us</a>, is still fuzzy on exactly what it is asking for).<div>
<br></div><div>Also, some who weren't on the original thread asked what Andrew's original questions were; they are below my sig. Also, to answer an aspect of the question I didn't answer before: unlike the original Bush-era version of the NSA programs, the most recently revealed aspects all seem to be occuring under FISA court order as per authorities in the FISA statute. We don't think that the statutes actually do or should authorize these things, but the Administration and the FISA court and many members of Congress clearly disagree. That's why we need to change the statutes, to the extent we can. Otherwise, there's little to be done (except successfully challenge the statutes on constitutional grounds, although as the Clapper case demonstrated, achieving standing to bring such a challenge can be very difficult.)<br>
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<div>____________________________________</div><div>Kevin S. Bankston</div><div>Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director</div><div>Center for Democracy & Technology</div><div>1634 I St NW, Suite 1100</div><div>Washington, DC 20006</div>
<div><a href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a> direct</div><div><a href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a> fax</div><div><a href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Follow CDT on Twitter at @cendemtech</div><div><br></div><div><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin:0px"><b>From: </b>Andrew Puddephatt <<a href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org" target="_blank">Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>><br>
</div><div style="margin:0px"><b>Subject: </b><b>[bestbits] RE: International civil society letter to Congress to follow up from HRC statement</b><br></div><div style="margin:0px"><b>Date: </b>June 12, 2013 4:41:05 AM EDT<br>
</div><div style="margin:0px"><b>To: </b>'Jeremy Malcolm' <<a href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org" target="_blank">jeremy@ciroap.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
</div><div style="margin:0px"><b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" target="_blank">irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" target="_blank">irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a>><br>
</div><br><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi everyone<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As we are referring to specific US legislation - </span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, </span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">the S</span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">tate </span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">S</span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ecrets </span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">P</span></span><span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rivilege, and the FISA Amendments Act I’d like to understand the legislation. From what I can read FISA talks about establishing a court “</span></span><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm">which shall have jurisdiction to hear applications for and grant orders approving electronic surveillance anywhere within the United States” and Section 215 then expands the scope of records searches dealt with by the court. This is obviously a concern to US citizens but a letter from international organisations should pick up on the issue of non US citizens.<u></u><u></u></span></strong></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm"><u></u> <u></u></span></strong></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm">Can someone direct me to any relevant legislation that refers to non US citizens, if there is such legislation? Can our US friends tell us which bit of legislation, if any, allows the surveillance of non US citizens? I want to be clear whether this is happening outside of the law (an executive branch responsibility) or within the law (the legislative branch)</span></strong><b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></b></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
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<br><div><div>On Jun 12, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Andrew Puddephatt <<a href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org" target="_blank">Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">Kevin<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">That’s helpful thanks – does the case in the Supreme Court, <i>Clapper v Amnesty International</i><span> </span>which was thrown out in 2013 have any bearing? As I understand it, it challenged the general provisions to acquire communications without “probable cause” but Amnesty as the plaintiff could not establish injury to anyone? From your brief the key change we would be looking for is amendment of the<span> </span></span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">FISA Amendments Act (FAA) 2008 which set this in motion. Do you know when this next requires authorisation (if it does?) <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">Of course it maybe that any general letter should avoid specific references to legislation, as the current draft seems to, but I would be interested in your views as to whether it is more effective in the US context to raise a general complaint or to focus upon specific legislative/executive changes that you want to achieve?</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span> </span><a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a><span> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:webwewant@" target="_blank">webwewant@</a><a href="http://googlegroups.com/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">googlegroups.com</a>]<span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Kevin Bankston<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>12 June 2013 15:40<br><b>To:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span> </span>michael gurstein;<span> </span><a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [bestbits] International civil society letter to Congress to follow up from HRC statement<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br>By then we might also have responses to Andrew Puddephatt's questions.<u></u><u></u></div>
</blockquote></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
I'm not sure how best to answer Andrew's questions; FISA is a complex law. And to be clear, Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act was an amendment to FISA's provision for court orders for records; not a separate law. And the state secrets privilege is common law; there is no statute for it. But I'll do my best!<u></u><u></u></div>
<div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
To read Andrew's question as narrowly as possible so that I can give a quick answer: In the context of foreign intelligence and terrorism investigations, FISA regulates surveillance conducted inside the United States, and acquisition of records from companies inside the United States, and surveillance outside of the United States to the extent it implicates United States person (i.e., citizens and naturalized permanent residents); there is also the National Security Letter authority which is an authority for the FBI to obtain records without going through the FISA Court. <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
These authorities directly implicate the privacy of non-Americans to the extent that 1) non-Americans may reside in the US, 2) non-Americans communications will transit or be stored in facilities in the US, 3) records about non-Americans will be stored by companies in the US. Finally, it also implicates the privacy of non-Americans to the extent that it does not at all regulate USG surveillance of non-Americans outside of America.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
FISA is at 18 USC 1801 et seq, in Chapter 36 of our US Code:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/chapter-36" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/chapter-36</a><u></u><u></u></div>
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In most relevant part, Subchapter I deals with individual wiretaps ("electronic surveillance"), II with secret physical searches, III with pen registers and trap and trace devices (i.e. surveillance of metadata), IV with records demands (now referred to as PATRIOT 215 orders since it was significantly amended by that section of PATRIOT). Meanwhile, Subchapter VI--added by the FISA Amendments Act (FAA) in 2008--provided the new and seriously problematic authority to obtain year long orders authorizing "programs" of non-individualized surveillance of communications where at least one party to the communication is outside of the country, while also allowing without any court authorization the interception of any foreign-to-foreign communications transiting the US; that is the authority under which PRISM is being used, as far as we best understand it.<u></u><u></u></div>
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Therefore and to be absolutely clear: amendment to these laws--and especially a narrowing of the FAA--would SUBSTANTIALLY impact the privacy of every non-American who uses modern communications networks and services, especially those with facilities in the US. And the assistance of international civil society will be critical in any effort to accomplish such amendments. So--thank you all for what you've been doing! <u></u><u></u></div>
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Best,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Kevin<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Kevin S. Bankston<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<u></u> <u></u></div><div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On Jun 12, 2013, at 10:02 AM, Anriette Esterhuysen <<a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
We need a clean copy.. but I am afraid I can't work on it today.<br><br>But thanks MIke and others who have given input. I would be happy to let Joy and Jeremy clean up and give us a version to send tomorrow or Friday.<br>
<br>By then we might also have responses to Andrew Puddephatt's questions.<br><br>Anriette<br><br><br>On 12/06/2013 15:03, michael gurstein wrote:<br>> I`ve commented as well and also<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
around all day...<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> ><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
> M<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> ><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
> -----Original Message-----<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> > From:<span> </span><a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> [<a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com</a>] On<br>
<br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> > Behalf Of Anriette Esterhuysen<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 4:28 AM<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> > Cc:<span> </span><a href="mailto:webwewant@googlegroups.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">webwewant@googlegroups.com</a>;<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span> </span><a href="mailto:irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">irp@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br>
<br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> > Subject: Re: [bestbits] International civil society letter to<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
Congress to<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> > follow up from HRC statement<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> ><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
Great work. Thanks Joy and Jeremy . I have made some comments. Will be<br>around all day if needed.<br><br>Anriette<br><br>On 12/06/2013 06:01, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:<br>> This follows on from a telephone call organised by the Web Foundation<br>
> yesterday, in which APC was asked to coordinate a civil society letter<br>> to the US government from international organisations. That letter<br>> would follow on from our joint statement to the Human Rights Council,<br>
> and we would invite Human Rights Watch and Privacy International to<br>> participate in drafting. APC agreed to do this and suggested<br>> continuing to use Best Bits as the coordinating coalition.<br><br>> Here is the first rough draft of the text that Joy from APC and I have<br>
> begun to put together, which awaits your comments and improvements:<br><br>><span> </span><a href="http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/your_name_here" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/your_name_here</a><span> </span>(sorry for the dumb URL)<br>
<br>> Although I'm cc'ing the IRP and Web We Want lists, to avoid<br>> fragmentation of discussions on the text like happened inadvertently<br>> last time, can I suggest, if nobody objects, that we centralise on<br>
> this list, and that if you are not a member you can join at<br>><span> </span><a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a>. To bring in others, you<br>
> can point them towards this list too.<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
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><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> ><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
><br><br>--<span> </span><br>------------------------------------------------------<br>anriette esterhuysen<span> </span><a href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br>
executive director, association for progressive communications<br><a href="http://www.apc.org/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a><br>po box 29755, melville 2109<br>south africa<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
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